Welcome to our Understanding Psychological Evaluations episode!  Today we explore the vital role of private educational evaluations in planning for students with disabilities. We are honored to have Dr. Diana Naddeo, a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and the owner of the Center for Assessment and Psychotherapy in Newtown, CT, as our guest. Dr. Naddeo specializes in pediatric psychological assessments, focusing on a comprehensive understanding of emotions, personality, learning, and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults. Her work is pivotal in creating tailored educational plans that address the unique needs of students with disabilities. In this episode, Dr. Naddeo sheds light on the importance of private educational evaluations in the educational planning process for students with disabilities. She delves into how these evaluations provide critical insights beyond what is often captured in standard school assessments. Dr. Naddeo discusses the various components of these assessments, including cognitive, academic, social-emotional, and behavioral aspects, and how they contribute to a holistic understanding of a student’s needs.  Listeners will gain valuable knowledge about how Dr. Naddeo uses the results of these evaluations to work collaboratively with families and schools. She emphasizes creating effective, individualized educational plans that not only address learning challenges but also leverage the strengths of each student. This episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and professionals seeking to deepen their understanding of how private educational evaluations can significantly impact the educational journey of students with disabilities. Join us for this insightful conversation with Dr. Diana Naddeo, a dedicated professional committed to the comprehensive assessment and support of young individuals with unique learning needs. Click here to find Dr. Naddeo at the Newtown Center for Assessment and Psychotherapy.   TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDStest, child, evaluation, evaluator, scores, testing, adhd, school, average, parents, problem, school district, cognitive, kids, neuro psych, assessment, reading, find, skills, high SPEAKERSDana Jonson, Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.   Dana Jonson  00:09 Welcome back to Special Ed on special ed. I am your host, Dana Jonson. And today I'm really excited because our guest is Diane and the Daio, who is a licensed clinical psychologist, and she's going to talk to us about evaluations. But I can't do anything without my disclaimer. So let's hear that first. Information and this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Before we get started, though, I want to give you a little background on Diana, back during the day is a licensed clinical psychologist. She's also the owner of the Center for assessment and psychotherapy in Newtown, Connecticut, which is a private practice focusing on work with children, adolescents and young adults. She is dedicated to seeing the whole child and specializes in pediatric psychological assessments that focus on emotions, personality, learning and behavior. Dr. Today is also well versed in psychiatric diagnosis, educational assessments, and a wide range of treatment approaches using this information to create a useful and effective plan for patients and their families. She also values the relationships between herself and her patients and strives to create a warm, accepting and easygoing atmosphere while also emphasizing the need to undo old patterns of behavior that are barriers to healthy functioning. Dr. Annandale is also an assistant professor in the education and educational psychology department at Western Connecticut State University, where she instructs and trains graduate students entering the field of Clinical Mental Health Counseling and School Counseling. That is a lot. Hi, Diana, thank you so much for joining me.   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  02:03 Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today.   Dana Jonson  02:06 Yes, I've had the great fortune of having you in some of my IEP meetings, because you do a lot of evaluations for schools as well as for parents and give great educational recommendations. I particularly like your PowerPoints that your to do does a PowerPoint presentation after her her evaluations for a lot of students for school districts, and I think it makes it really accessible and understandable. I like the visuals. I just like how you present them, I think you have an understanding of how much we don't understand if that's the right way. And   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  02:38 that will there's not there's no point in writing 15 pages of jargon isn't helpful for anyone. But there is a standard right that a report be written in that way doesn't mean you communicate there was often that way. So even I will pick up a report sometimes and have to sit there with a dictionary right to decipher decode what is actually being said. So I think that's like the one I hope to bring to the table here today. And then also in the meetings.   Dana Jonson  03:03 Yeah,   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  03:04 for all of us to get it right. Like we need to understand it. It's not about   Dana Jonson  03:07 I mean, I find I've been reading these reports for years, and I still find myself pulling out my like whisk book or like whatever it is to be like, how does this work again? Or what does that mean again, so I find it really helpful. And I love the way you connect the results to the child as to how they are and what they need and why. So it's not just hear my numbers, and here's what the child needs and do it. There's like a whole explanation behind it. So I find that really helpful. And the reason I wanted to have you on here today was because I also had the privilege of seeing you present not that long ago on evaluations and explaining them and understanding why they're necessary and why people like you do exactly what you do and why it is so important. So I do want to start with why does one need an evaluation your you don't work for school districts, school districts are obligated to provide evaluations. So what is it? Why would a parent becoming or a school district be calling you and saying we need you to evaluate this kid? What is different between you and the school psychologist or whoever they have on staff?   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  04:12 So I think there's a few things that really is that kind of an outside evaluation apart from a school type of evaluation. And the main one that stands out is the the breadth of testing that can be done in a private setting. Right. So I know that the schools are coming from a place of, you know, needing to meet a lot of needs, and not always having the resources to spend hours and hours doing testing. Therefore it's like appropriate although not always done, right in this way. Let's just refer out well, we need to go deeper. And we need to dig a little bit more to figure out what is going on what is the problem area because what we're doing now isn't working. So I have tried to approach testing whether it's a family wanting to I can opinion, because the school testing wasn't sufficient or they don't agree with it, or it's this school. And usually it's a school and family right in the form of a independent eval coming together and needing a third person to mediate, perhaps them, like kind of just got them seeds of conflict between the school and family. Either scenario, my job and how I view testing is to really tell the story of the child. And I don't want just the Table of Contents, which is often what kind of more kind of straightforward testing in school testing entails, I want to tell the story of at least three to four chapters. And I read about 15 pages, which turned into you know, 45, and that can be done. But really, to what degree is it helpful to know every single thing about the child when you can only start with what's most disruptive? What's most of interference? So my approach is to get as much information as I can in a reasonable that's reasonable and timely, and really hone in on those three key features of the child's functioning, whether that includes how they respond to difficult emotions, what they do when they can't read something, or understand it, or why can't they do math facts quickly? Right? You want to unpack that? Because things aren't unique dimensional. Everything is multiplied, determined. And so by that, I mean, what's the recipe? What are the ingredients in the recipe that make up this problem area?   Dana Jonson  06:39 I love that. The other piece I wanted to ask you specifically it was when we when the school district does an evaluation, they refer to it as a psycho educational. And that means the cognitive component as well as the educational component. And that often includes an achievement component, meaning, you know, what can they do and what do they know? Do you do neuro psychological evaluations or are they also psycho Ed's? Does that make sense?   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  07:03 Yep, I do. So I'd say a straightforward neuro cycle neuropsychological evaluation is I think the word is used more loosely than intended to describe testing of different mental capacities. So it's a good question. Formal neuro psych testing usually implies that there's some medical condition that has caused the disruption in inorganic brain functioning. So if I have a child who got into an accident, car accident, and suffered post traumatic brain injury as a result of that accident, when neuro psychological assessment in this way would be really helpful, because it includes things like brain scans, MRIs, to look at the brain and really see what may have been altered, and then to test to see if there's accuracy between like the frontal lobe being harmed in some way. And we know that when the frontal lobe is disrupted, we can have things like a lack of inhibition or problems self regulating in general. We also know that kids presents, right with all sorts of issues that can look like we our brain is responsible for regulating and modulating all the different experiences we have. So while neuro psych tests are super important to include in a battery assessment, I don't think that I think that formal neuropsychological testing, has a time in place. Instead of answer your question, I would most of my assessments include psycho educational and neuro psychological all in one, I tend to view them more as comprehensive evaluations, I guess, taking a wish, you know, that include neuro cognitive, academic, social, emotional, and personality, we need to have those four features there. And what you call it, I guess, fits into both categories. And that's because I think that the unfortunate kind of trend is that neuro psychological testing is what it's called. Right? So people are out in the world asking for that, but it's not always necessarily necessarily what they need.   Dana Jonson  09:14 Yes. And I have clients who will say, Oh, I'm getting a neuro psych insurance is paying for it. And I know that's even more different because insurance can't pay for educational component. Correct?   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  09:25 Right. So insurance companies specifically state in all their guidelines that any form of psychological or neuropsychological testing is a covered service that it's done for medical necessity, and it's something I'm very sensitive to and cautious in terms of testing the limits in any capacity. Because the second we bring in education, academics, the parents technically could be at risk of getting a very big bill at the end of the day, and that That's because it's up to the insurance companies to dictate what is quote to educational. Right? You know, for myself, I'm not just for the the insurance, customer service rep who's authorizing. They're doing their job, they have protocol to follow they no way, shape or form have a expertise that allows them to dictate these rules on a clinical level, but they do on an administrative level that   Dana Jonson  10:25 when kids are this is just a random question popped in my head. But what about children? Who are they're not children anymore? Like adults, like I know, some people when they maybe go to graduate school or something need to get evaluated, or want to get evaluated to see but they're no longer under the purview of their education system? Would that change at all the outcome of neuro psych for that person? Or no,   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  10:48 in terms of the coverage? Or in terms of the Yeah, no, it's it's it's educational purposes. So it cannot and that's I can just so the way I think about it, and why it's such a ridiculous kind of concept is that even at the college level, or graduate school level, rather, I want to see if I have a learning disability that will make schoolwork more stressful for me, and therefore make might make me vulnerable to develop an anxiety disorder. So in a preventative model of healthcare, we would test at the beginning stage of starting this new endeavor, so we can limit the possibility or reduce the likelihood that I could develop some mental health issues by putting a plan in place ahead of time, but we live in a very reactive system. Yeah. And waits for the House to catch on fire doesn't put the stovetop fire out first.   Dana Jonson  11:36 Got it? Okay. Yeah, I know that I know that a lot of parents hit that area when children are going to college or even graduate school or something along those lines and need that information. And they're not cheap evaluations. I'm very, I mean, I can talk a little bit about the public schools obligations. And I think we know that schools are obligated to evaluate children when they're referred for special education, that they are obligated to evaluate them every three years if they are qualified for special education. And I think you typically come in, as you said, when either the child is so complicated that both the parents and the school district are looking for something a little deeper. Or perhaps the parents have asked for an independent or sometimes the school asks for an independent, I've had that happen as well, understanding that your type of evaluation, I don't mean you just specifically but outside evaluators really can dig in a little deeper, they can assess more of the process than the school can correct the grades round to us.   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  12:35 Yes. Right. Not getting just like not focusing on the content. So the content would be the test scores,   Dana Jonson  12:41 exactly   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  12:42 right processes. What does that mean in relation to the child's life?   Dana Jonson  12:47 Right, exactly? How did they come to those test scores? And how should we be looking at them? And are they valid or not? So I think that's, that's important information for parents to have. What are? And I don't know, if you covered this little bit, I did say about the cognitive and achievement, but what are the different tests that you would incorporate into that neuro psych or psycho ed that you would do as a private evaluator? Do you have more tools than like the public school would have or different?   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  13:18 I think, yeah, I think that you get more creative than have to look into what else is out there to be able to still meet the needs of the role of being an outside evaluator, because they can, it's likely had the standard battery that we all use when we someone comes into my office. And they're simply just wanting to get testing done very simply. But Myaree is not for the purpose of the school, maybe they want to understand school and academic functioning, but it's not in a relationship to an IEP or eligibility for special ed. And in that fall at the toolbox that contains like the basics, the basics that you need, in the cognitive, academic and social emotional realm. For a child, he's had an IEE, where Sue's having an evaluation done where the school has done testing in the near past and past that, they are likely to have had that initial set of the standard types of assessments. So yeah, I think that for the cognitive, right, I'll go pack maybe I'm gonna go through each one and in my mind, tell you what the standard is and what they likely paired and then what I might use in response or in replacement for that. Just as a side note, just familiarize, everyone you can repeat, especially cognitive and academic achievement tests are very sensitive to the practice effect. So that when a child is given any assessment of things like working memory processing speed, reading abilities, math calculation skills, when they've already done it once, they're likely to do better the second time you give it the   Dana Jonson  14:58 protocols It's been   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  15:02 Yes, there are the tasks. If I were to Jessie repeat the, you know, the whisk, for example. So the cognitive component, or cognitive and intellectual functioning is usually measured by the first kids, the whisk, which is the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for children. And then once they hit 16, it's the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale. So the Wechsler system is the most popular mine kind of highly large norm group standardized over decades, and constantly kind of evolving and updating in its additions to be up with the kept up to date with the times and findings in the literature on the fields. So that would be the standard. And if someone were to have done that John was did that at school. I'm all for though testing in September, if I repeated it, even four to six months later, which I think we in our minds feels like a large gap of time, I am vulnerable to the child presenting as though they're functioning better than they are. Because they might do better on each of those tests, simply by nature of the fact that they've seen this stuff before. That doesn't mean they remember, I mean, part of it is yes, just a memory thing. I remember that question. And the answer that they're not getting feedback. So that's usually what people think. But it's not, it's the anxiety and the level of unknown. That is what is kind of one of the foundational components of why this testing is effective. I'm trying to grasp the snapshot, I'm trying to get a snapshot of you at this point in time, without any studying or without any preparation. So on the unknown component is really important. And that is why would we give it again, that familiarity and greater or standard a little bit of comfort with it, we'll call it could cause someone to do better as a result, by my replace that with like the Riis, the Reynolds intellectual Reynolds,   Dana Jonson  17:03 to clarify with the IEE because, you know, I think that term is thrown around. Sometimes an independent educational evaluation is technically any evaluation not done by the school district. But I think we're using it in the in the term of a lot of times in Connecticut, or at least I refer to IE as an evaluation that the parent has requested after the school district does their own evaluation. So there's a component in the ID EA, which is a law that governs special education that says that once the school district does their evaluations, then the parent if they disagree with them, if that evaluation doesn't look like your child, or if it looks like them, but maybe not the same highs and lows, you know, if there's anything about it that you disagree with, then you can disagree and request an independent educational evaluation. And if your school district agrees with you, then you pick the evaluator and they pay for it. They they're obligated to give you a list of evaluators but you don't have to use their evaluators, I personally always find, if you can come to a mutually agreed upon person, I always find it a little easier than to get those recommendations implemented. So I find that to be a good strategy. But it doesn't have to be and you still have the right to get it and the school district is still obligated to consider it. But technically independent evaluations are anyone not in the school district and the school can ask for one. But that doesn't meet the parents ie rights if the school district asked for it, because if they choose the evaluator, and they ask for it, then it's still their evaluation. So I just wanted to clarify that you were saying about the raise? Oh, that was the other thing I was gonna say is that a lot of times what I'll hear from school districts is they're just going to use the same test we did. And my response is typically Well, outside evaluators tend to have access to a variety of different tests. And I do know that some tests have alternate sheets, like type A, or A Part A or Part B. So they some tests can be done the exact same test, it's just a different protocol. So they're not actually doing the same work. Right?   Diana Naddeo, Psy.D.  19:02 Yeah. 100%. Right. So it's a different form different items, just the same didn't test developer, it's under the same name. So you just you know, you want to find an evaluator who has a complimentary version, an alternative version of the ultimate version of the test that was done by the school. So the the rise to the Reynolds and intellectual assessment scales do near a lot of the tests that are on the west, they're sustained Bourbonnais amongst others that are available out there. What as it relates to academics, Woodcock Johnson or the Wechsler, there's that name, again, achievement tests are often used, so I will use one of the two that the school didn't, and then really I go, I think that the there's at least two broad main kind of attractions standouts rather, within each category, and then From there, I tried to replicate, right? Do the one that wasn't done, but then hone in on what do we need to know more about? Because if this kid is doing really well, verbally, yes, I want to repeat the verbal comprehension tests of the broad measure. But I don't need to spend more time doing another battery, telling me how if it's consistent, it's consistent, right? The scores are high average high average, I need to focus on these other features that might be consistently low average for the problem area, kind of sticking point, usually, the child is just on the cusp of average. So the school

A TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website: https://SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.   Life skills are the biggest predictor of adult success for individuals with Autism. Yet, many parents and school teams misunderstand the full breadth of life skills, and they often take a back seat in special education planning.  We discuss the 3 domains and 10 categories of life skills and their importance to increasing quality of life, how to incorporate life skills into the IEP early, and how to navigate transition and the IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).   My guest for this episode is Julie Swanson, a.k.a. The Life Skills Lady. She is the parent of an adult with an autism spectrum disorder and a non-attorney special education advocate.  Her career as an advocate grew out of her own advocacy efforts for her son.     Julie is the founder of lifeskillslady.com, a website devoted to increasing quality of life and independence for students on the autism spectrum.  You can follow her @lifeskillslady on all social media platforms. Julie is also the co-author of Your Special Education Rights: What Your School District Isn’t Telling You.   You can find the Life Skills Cheat Sheet Julie discusses here: https://lifeskillslady.com/resources/life-skills-cheat-sheet/   You can find the IEP Discussion Guide for Life Skills here: https://lifeskillslady.com/resources/iep-discussion-guide-for-life-skills/   You can reach out to Julie here: https://lifeskillslady.com/contact   If you liked this episode, share it with a friend and on social and leave a review here: https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/show/special-ed-on-special-ed/aaf5305a-7592-403f-950a-7a60dc4914be/ratings-and-reviews   FLASHBACK Go back and listent to the episode, Should they stay or should they go?, where I discuss transition skills with transition specialist, Muncie Kardos, Ph.D., OTR/L, ATP: https://specialed.fm/?p=1187   A TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website: https://SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.   TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDS skills, child, parents, advocate, alex, disabilities, school district, teach, attorney, kids, autism, iep, school, functional, find, adult, academics, special ed, dana, assessment SPEAKERSJulie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady), Dana Jonson   Dana Jonson  00:09 Hello and welcome to Special Ed on special ed. I am your host, Dana Jonson. And I have a wonderful guest for us today. Miss Julie Swanson, who is the life skills lady and she is going to talk to us about her passion project for Life Skills lady.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  00:26 The Life Skills lady is all about increasing quality of life and outcomes in autism and other developmental disabilities through life skills beautiful.   Dana Jonson  00:37 And that's what we're going to talk about today. But I can't do anything without my disclaimer. So let's hear that first. Information and this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship. Nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Thank you for being here. Julie. I'm so excited. You're here. Let me tell my audience a little bit about you. Julie Swanson is a parent of an adult with autism spectrum disorder and a non attorney special education advocate. The career as an advocate grew out of her own advocacy efforts for her son, which we're going to talk about a little bit. And she's the founder of life skills. lady.com, which is a website devoted to increasing the quality of life and independence for students on the autism spectrum. You can follow her at Life Skills lady on all social media platforms. And she's also the co author of the very popular book, your special education rights, what your school district isn't telling you, which you can find on Amazon, which is a great reference for parents. And all of this information will be in my show notes. So if you're driving and you can't write anything down, then just go back and read it a little bit later. So Julie, thank you for being here. I would love to start with how this all came to be for you. You're a mother of a child with disabilities. So what was your path that brought you from that to advocacy to the lifeskills? Lady?   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  02:14 Right. Thank you for having me. You know, my son, Alex, who is an adult, was diagnosed with autism in 1997. Just almost three at that time.   Dana Jonson  02:27 That's really early for that time, isn't it? Yes. So   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  02:30 that was right when I didn't even I barely knew what the word autism was, I had to look it up in a never forget it a set of red encyclopedias down at my laptop, which were from the 1950s. And let's just say I went home and cried for four days. And I had a very dark period, because you do not want to read about autism from a set of 1950s. People don't even know what encyclopedias are if people   Dana Jonson  02:57 can't even imagine that being the primary resource anymore. But yeah, that sounds scary, right.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  03:03 And so autism was just on the rise at that point. But when he was diagnosed, I felt like I was the only person on earth who had had a child with autism. But as time went on, he went through the purpose of three system and then went into the school system. And I had developed a home program for him before going into the school system out of my basement using the principles of applied behavior analysis. And there were no board certified behavior analysts BCBAs in the state of Connecticut, where I live. So we had to get a BCBAs from Rutgers, which was a big epicenter of applied behavior analysis and such. So I had asked going into the school system, you know, he requires a program and we had evaluations and recommendations from professionals who said, Yes, he requires a program using the principles of applied behavior analysis. And of course, the answer was no school system didn't even know what ABA was or what   Dana Jonson  03:59 it be back then they were still considering it a methodology. Right. Right. It wasn't considered scientifically proven. No.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  04:05 In fairness, nobody was tooled up back then at the school systems were not tooled up. So why was the second due process case in the state of Connecticut, asking for program using the principles of ABA? Wow, it is a podcast in and of itself to go but was my hearing. But we ultimately prevailed. And the word got out that this woman named Julie Swanson was successful getting an ABA program in her school system. And by now you know, time is going on and the the the incidence of the disorder is on the rise and people started calling me and of course you go through a hearing all the way through you have gone through a boot camp and understanding the IDE a the Individuals with Disabilities Education. So I without knowing it had come to learn the skill set. I really know Ever wanted to have? Yeah,   Dana Jonson  05:01 it's true. Because it's not just about knowing the disability. I mean, you are going through, like you said, a boot camp of special education law. And let is important and what isn't important, and not everything that's unfair is illegal, right? So that's right. We're learning everything from scratch.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  05:18 I was fortunate enough at the time to be able to stay home with my two kids. But I as time went on, like, Okay, I need to go back to work now. And in my previous lifetime, I had sort of two tracks that I was on. I was intelligent production, and I was in public relations. And I was ready to go back to work. But by this time, so many people are calling me and asking for advice that I was giving out freely and taking a lot of time and energy from me, I thought, I think I have a business. I think this is a need. And you know who the players were at this that time there were only three advocates in the state.   Dana Jonson  05:58 Not Alone people. Right.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  06:00 We know who they are. Well,   Dana Jonson  06:01 and to point out your attorney for your due process hearing was your co author, correct? Absolutely.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  06:07 I met attorney Jennifer Laviano because her father represented me. Yes. So yeah. So that's that's how I met Tony Laviano. So anyway, that's how I fell into this. And I've been doing it ever since 20 plus years. Johnson.   Dana Jonson  06:25 Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. Because I think I met you about 20 years ago. I   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  06:31 Oh, probably. Yeah. Yeah.   Dana Jonson  06:35 That's insane. As Alex grew up and went through the different phases, I mean, just because you want your due process hearing and got a placement. Yeah, that wasn't the end of it. Right. It wasn't like no veiling from then on. And eventually he became an adult and no longer under the purview of a school district. Right. So and I remember that transition for you as well, it was very difficult. So yes, let's talk about life skills. Lady, when did that happen to be   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  07:04 a thank you. And you know, it's, it's an answer that I hope will help people, right. And the whole reason that I started the life skills lady, which by the way, I did over the pandemic, it had been brewing in me for years. But when do we have time doing what we do, I know, I'm not an attorney. But we essentially do a lot of the same thing, a lot of the same stuff, to secure appropriate programming for kids with disabilities in school systems. And obviously, different levels of us will ever be without a job. That's right. I, I'd love to be out of a job. But it would be wonderful, I would be wonderful. So in over the years of doing this, and I work with kids with all disabilities, but I do do a lot of autism, because that just happens to be one of the things that I'm known for, but I do all disabilities. And in working with kids who have autism and other significant developmental disabilities, I have seen this, it's more than a trend. It's a practice, I suppose, for the lack of a better word, where people start thinking about transition and adulthood in what I call the 11th hour now, and it really is too late. Strands transition to adulthood, begins when your child enters the school system. If that's a preschool, it's in preschool, I think that's in the third grade, because many people have different paths, right? So kids come from private schools or whatever, it starts immediately. Because it takes a long time to build up these 10 areas of life skills, and most people think of life skills. In my opinion, I don't think there's ever been a study, but in my own organic research that I've done, people think of life skills as skills you have in the kitchen, and skills you have taken care of yourself with hygiene and dressing and all that stuff, end of story. That is one area of the 10 areas of life skills. And so from the beginning, there's a misunderstanding of what life skills are. And so I just thought that, combined with the very poor statistical outcomes we have for our kids who have neuro diversities, and autism spectrum disorders, and by the way, they're worse than any other of the disabilities. Great. We've got to change this. And we can change it now we're, we still need so much research. Because think about it, all these kids are just becoming adults in the last five or so years, 10 or so years. And so we're in catch up mode to do the research of what it takes to improve these outcomes. But everybody can agree that By increasing life skills, you increase the likelihood of increasing outcomes and quality of life   Dana Jonson  10:10 well, and that's we want them to be as independent as adults as possible. And if we wait until they're adults to work on those skills, right, nothing's gonna happen. I heard Peter Gerhart speak once, and he's the best he is. And I and what he said, I've really changed my view. And I got it because I'd worked in a very severe escalation. And he said, When adult men go into a public bathroom, yeah, the environment there is vastly different than an adult woman going into the bathroom, right? We talk to people, we chat out of the blue, you'll comment on someone's shirt or their lipstick with no prompting, right? Because training these young boys to use a public bathroom, women, primarily the teachers are women. And I've recalled having that happen with one of my students, I had to take them to the airport, and we're at a public bathroom, and I couldn't go in. And they were in there with their communication book going up to people and pointing and talking to them. And I remember thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is not okay. Like, thank God, there were there was somebody there who was very kind, and he's like, I'll watch the door you can go in and now that sort of thing, but, but I realized, like, Oh, this isn't appropriate, this is something we have to work on. That kid was 18. So we were going to start then. And so to your point of starting very early, it's things like that, that we're not even contemplating, right, until a later age.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  11:37 And then there are barriers within the system of why parents are told that we don't have to teach life skills. I mean, there are a myriad of reasons why you may get pushback as a parent incorporating life skills into VIP early. And let's face it, look, you're in school, primarily. It shouldn't, you know, it's not just primarily, but we're there to learn the curriculum, right? Or if you're in special education, to, to be as close to that curriculum or something. Right, you know, appropriately designed in sync with it. And so there, there's just this thinking of, we're not there for life skills. Right. So I did I answer your question? Well, yes.   Dana Jonson  12:19 But I think to your point, aren't we though, because if a child wants to have disabilities, right, right, you're expecting them to learn the skills to interact with adults, you're expecting them to learn the skills to be able to handle a job interview, that's why they have a guidance counselor or their interview for college. So we are providing those life skills to children without disabilities, right. And so to say that a child with disabilities doesn't get that same kind of training, maybe they're not going to college, but they need to know how to interact in a work environment, or in a school environment or further training or whatever environment that is, and also for living purposes, the more independent a child is, the better their living situation will be post high school and post public school. Right? Yeah.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  13:10 And you know, in the IDE, A is you know, itself, it says the transition from a federal timeline is by 16, right. And in our state is 14, and every state is different, because you could move that up. But it also says if earlier earlier if the team deems that right, if necessary. And so what I like to try to do is to say to teams know, we need to start it early, earlier. There are things in the system that also probably inadvertently create barriers to parents incorporating the skills earlier.   Dana Jonson  13:46 So what are those barriers? What are you looking out for?   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  13:50 Right? So one of them the law? Right, right. And right, but the obviously the law is designed to work for us and protect us. But many parents don't even know what it is. Right? So here's the scenario that typically happens. Even when I'm involved, right? You say, well, we'd like, let's, let's say it's, we'd like to teach Susie, how to cook macaroni and cheese. And what the team will say is, but she doesn't need that skill to access the general education curriculum. And why do teens say that? Because the definition of an IEP states and oh, by the way, I'm going to read it. Oh, good. For those who can't   Dana Jonson  14:33 see this. I will tell you that Julie is reading from printouts that are on the life skills lady.com So she has some wonderful printouts so go check those out.   Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady)  14:42 Right? Yes, free. Thank you, Dana. So I am I was so bothered by the answers that are given when asking do incorporate life skills into the IEP earlier. I did this print out so that parents can bring some Think to the team with them and say, Hey, I've got this, this guide here, can I go through with the team, the definition of an IEP, according to the IDA, and this is an abridged version says, is a statement of the child's present levels of academic achievement, and functional performance. There's the big one for life skills, including, and this is what everybody quotes, how the child's disability affects the child's involvement and progress in the general education curriculum. However, Dana, as you know, the statute goes on to say that it is also designed that an IEP is designed to meet each of the child's other educational needs, that result from the child's disability. And it goes on to say, to make progress, in addition to making progress in the general education curriculum, and to participate in extra curricular and non academic activities. Okay, and to be educated and participate with other children with disabilities and non disabled children in the activities. So my point there is and why I put this guide together, is it gives parents something to go in to their team with to say, This is what the actual law says, No, it doesn't have to be just that it's to make involvement and effective child's involvement in progress in the general ed curriculum. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah,   Dana Jonson  16:36 there's more to it. And I find that in many of these meetings, there's a lot of language that's left out, for example, I, you know, just popped into my head, least restrictive

On the 10th Anniversary of the Sandy Hook Shooting, I speak with Deb Del Vecchio-Scully, a trauma specialist, about the long-term impacts of school shootings.

When people hear ABA, they usually think of Autism. However, social skills training is a component of applied behavior analysis (ABA) therapy that can help students with social skills deficits. ABA social skills training offers a set of techniques designed to strengthen an individual’s social skills. Neurological, emotional, and developmental disabilities are often marked by a lack of social intuition. Most people learn social rules and conventions naturally, but they are foreign to individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and other developmental disabilities. Some students find it impossible to master even seemingly simple social interactions. They are identifying social cues, understanding other people's intentions, and knowing when and how to respond and interact with others in social situations are not innate abilities. Individuals often referred to as 'socially blind' lack inherent skills in interacting with others in social situations. Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT) joins me today to discuss social skills rooted in ABA. Justyna Balzar is the Co-Founder & CEO of The Hangout Spot (https://www.thehangoutspotllc.com), a center that offers specialized play and social skills instruction based on Applied Behavior Analysis. They offer thoughtfully structured, experiential small-group learning through on-site programs and remote teaching. Justyna has over 15 years of experience working with learners of varying profiles between the ages of 3 and 18 across multiple settings. She received her Assistant Behavior Analyst (BCaBA) certification in 2014 from the Florida Institute of Technology, her Master's in Curriculum and Education in Applied Behavior Analysis from Arizona State University, and her BCBA certification in 2016. Her publications include Behavior Science of the 21st Century blog posts and articles for Autism Parenting Magazine. Driven by a passion for educating others about the wide-reaching applications of ABA, Justyna founded @Behaviorchik, an online persona intended to disseminate behavior analytic resources. She also created the @Theabaadvocacyproject, an initiative spearheaded by The Hangout Spot founders and a fellow BCBA that unifies the advocacy practices of parents and professionals using ABA. You can reach Justyna here: Justyna@thehangoutspotllc.com You can reach me here: Dana@SpecialEd.fm FLASHBACK: I’ve spoken with Justyna before! She and Hangout Spot Co-Founder, Meghan Cave, joined me previously to discuss the benefits of teaching social skills through the ABA lens. Check that episode out here! https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/wanna-hangout-i-know-just-the-spot

This is an essential episode because Social Emotional Learning is not just for students with special education needs - everyone needs social-emotional learning skills! Social-Emotional Learning, also called SEL, is an integral part of education and human development. It helps students and adults develop healthy identities, manage emotions, and feel empathy for others. SEL gives students the skills they need to build supportive relationships. Students learn the skills, attitudes, and knowledge surrounding social-emotional learning to make responsible decisions. By establishing trusting and collaborative relationships, rigorous and meaningful curriculum and instruction, and ongoing evaluation, SEL helps schools, families, and communities achieve educational equity and excellence. Through SEL, we can help address various forms of inequality and empower young people and adults to create thriving schools. It's helpful to start with a clear definition of Social-Emotional Learning (SEL). A school-wide SEL program equips students of all ages with skills to achieve their own unique goals. It includes understanding and managing their emotions, nurturing positive relationships, making informed decisions, and feeling empathy. Learning SEL is critical to students’ success, both in and out of the classroom. Dr. Judy Grossman joins me today to discuss what social-emotional learning is, why it is important, and why it is for all students! Dr. Grossman is the Associate Director of the Center for the Developing Child and Family at the Ackerman Institute for the Family. She is also an Adjunct Professor at NYU. Previous academic appointments include Yale School of Medicine and SUNY – Downstate Medical Center. Dr. Grossman has conducted special education policy research for the NYS and NYC Departments of Education and school districts in Fairfield County. She lectures nationally and internationally on the topics of family resilience, mental health consultation, and special education family-centered services. Dr. Grossman is an occupational therapist, public health educator and consultant, and she maintains a private practice in couples and family therapy, specializing in neurodiverse children. She is also a member of the Smart Kids with LD Board of Directors. TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDS child, parents, social emotional learning, children, feelings, piece, school, understand, kids, feel, terms, iep, regulate, grossman, special ed, episode, people, academic, learning, behavior SPEAKERS Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW, Dana Jonson Dana Jonson 00:09 Okay, welcome back to Special Ed on Special Ed, thank you so much for tuning in today. I'm very excited for today's episode, because we have Dr. Judy Grossman, who is the Associate Director of the Center for the Developing Child and Family at the Ackerman interests Institute for the family. I got it all out that time. And we're gonna talk about social emotional learning. So stay tuned, I'm going to run my disclaimer before we say a word. And then we'll jump right into it. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship. Nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Great, Dr. Grossman, thank you so much for joining me today, I was able to get out your very long title. But I would love it if you would give us a little background on you and why you are the one that I need to have teach me about social emotional learning. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 01:19 Okay, first of all, thanks for having me thrilled to be talking to the parents that are listening or whomever actually started my career as an OT. And then went into academia and did some policy research in special ed and became a family therapist. I mean, like I've had many, many different experiences, my area of focus has always been family resilience, even before we we use that term. You know, years ago, we only talked about risks and deficits. But you know, there's been a change a long time coming, and looking at strengths and resilience. And I started a project for family therapists to work, specifically with families with neurodiverse children. And that's because all my experience has taught me that there are layers to the work. So you may be a very competent family therapist, or a maybe an excellent educator and special ed. But you need the whole package. So if you're doing clinical work, that's more than the area of mental health, you have to understand the IEP and the different diagnoses. And on top of interested in family resilience, very, most of my work deals with the parents, because parents are so significant. And situations can be so stressful. And they often search for skills or strategies to help them manage their child's behavior, or even keep themselves regulated when they're getting upset. So social emotional learning, and I'd say it's a term that's been around since the 90s. There's a consortium, researchers, policymakers, educators, clinicians, everybody that's interested in evidence based practice, in terms of social emotional learning. And after the pandemic, or I shouldn't say that we are still in the pandemic, actually, right. We're not sure how it's over yet. I'm actually getting up at COVID. Right now myself. So we are, Dana Jonson 03:45 I think we're over the initial shock of the pandemic, maybe that's what we're thrilled with the initial shock. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 03:51 That's the one thing we've learned a couple of things. One is children are struggling with anxiety and depression. And for some even PTSD, this has been very challenging and continues to be very challenging for students. Second thing we learn, which I know, the past 40 plus 50, long time is that parents are so important in supporting their child's total development, but particularly the social emotional development because you're the model. You're the coach. A lot of it has to do with your own development of social emotional skills. And I think that the pandemic has raised awareness that it's so important for schools to partner with parents. Dana Jonson 04:47 Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, that's how I sort of came to it was I had an older child who was neurodiverse, who was not able to identify her own emotions and feelings. And so as a family, we sort of had to learn to talk in this way of explaining ourselves and explaining our emotions and our feelings as they were happening in sort of a way to help educate her. And what I learned was I have three of my five children are have a traumatic background, and they're adopted. And and so but what I learned through this process was, it was significantly benefiting my bio, no typical child. And I mean, I don't know that anyone in my house is neuro neurotypical, but whatever you get, the idea is that these pieces, these pieces that I was putting into place for a specific reason for a specific disability for a specific need, actually applied to everybody in the house. And that's how I started to sort of identify that and now that as you say, the pandemic brought much more awareness to the forefront. And, and I agree with you, I think it's critical that we, as parents understand our role in that. Because when you tell a child you need to be doing this, but you're not doing it yourself. That's always my favorite when parents like Well, I'm definitely getting them into therapy. And I'll say, Well, do you have a therapist, and parents will say, Well, no, I don't need one. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 06:21 So you've made a couple of really good points, then that one is, this is universal. Every child and adult will have better live success, if they have good social emotional awareness. They understand can live with our own feelings, they can begin to identify feelings and others and develop empathy. They have good relationships, and most importantly, particularly with neurodiverse children that the child can regulate. So emotional regulation, meaning, you know, that don't have these uncontrollable outbursts, but they can find ways to self soothe, and cope. And another piece of that is CO regulation. So children who aren't able to do that, the parent has to sort of be their prefrontal cortex and help them regulate. So there are a lot of different dimensions to social emotional learning. But the way that the state of the art so to speak is that there are many curriculum, and many of them are endorsed by Castle, which is this consortium for collaborative social, emotional educational learning, and their school wide. So you know, a school might be interested in paying more attention to social emotional learning, and we can talk about what the research says, and more and more schools are adopting different curriculums. So it's helpful for parents to know, you know, what is your curriculum, and social emotional learning? Dana Jonson 08:05 The why would that be important for a parent to understand the specific curriculum? Is it that the language is different depending on the curriculum? Or how does that fit into what's going on at home? Okay, Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 08:17 so it actually is less about which one, but knowing that they have one. Okay. I think that what goes on at home should complement the language that they're using in school. So there's not a disconnect, in many, many ways to do this. I mean, I often do, training people to do groups with parents and their children to learn these skills. And the earlier the better. I mean, you can, you know, start social emotional learning, with infants. Yeah. In terms of how you help them. And your narrative, your storytelling always includes failing words. So in terms of the steps in social emotional learning, the the, I would say the first step is just labeling feelings, yours, their husbands or partners, the other children in the family, and, you know, take advantage of 24/7 teachable moments. Oh, wow, we see those people there. They're having an argument. They, they look like they're so angry at each other. Are you watching a movie, when he's still kind because he keeps trying to help his friends, so forth and so on. So this is something that can be done, woven into family life. If you have a child and has difficulty labeling feelings, you become curious. And let's say you're watching your child doing homework and they're having a hard time. You can say I'm wondering if you're frustrated. I mean, you're looking frustrated to me, then how are you feeling? So you don't tell the child, how he or she is feeling. But you probe who has a question. And eventually children will be able, there'll be more in touch and be able to name how they feel. And once you have a name, there's a terminal name entertainment, that helps you feel more in control. You know, if they just have this amorphous, let's say you feel anxious, but you don't really know that that's anxiety. Right? You're uncomfortable, you might have bodily signals, and you don't know what they mean. And you might say, every night, my tummy hurts, my tummy hurts. And well, that might be the signal for that child that that means that you're worried that you're just Dana Jonson 10:54 yeah, there's there's that goal responses that it's not, I think that's an important piece, too, is to understand, especially for kids in school, when you see a child, when I see a child who visits the nurse a lot. My first thought is okay, that's anxiety. That's, you know, they're fearful of something, they're worried about something they're escaping from something like that, to me is the first sign right? That that they've removed Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 11:20 themselves, actually, they, they may want to avoid something, or escape, or they may just be overstimulated. And they don't understand that. They just know they need a break. So that's really the first step. I mean, until someone has some self awareness. And when I work with parents, I always encourage a lot of self reflection, because there's a term meta emotion. how people feel about feelings. Yeah, so so people are not comfortable with angry feelings that are not express them. Some people have a lot of trouble handling when their child seems sad. Feelings are feeling, Dana Jonson 12:08 I think that's our natural response, right? Our child is that I want you to feel better. So I'm just going to immediately try to make you feel better. And Kelly, you you feel better. And that's not a big deal. It's not upsetting. Don't worry about it. But what I'm saying is your feelings don't matter. And that's where you'll have to parent right, that's Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 12:23 dismissive, which is unethical. Because either say, your feelings don't matter, or this feeling is like a feeling that we want to talk about or notice. Dana Jonson 12:35 And I find for parents, sometimes it's hard to see when it wasn't our intent to harm a child, it's really hard to acknowledge that what we did, because they think in the back of our mind that So the worst thing we could do is harm a child. That's that's like our natural reaction is to not do that. That concept is so overwhelming, that our first response is to be like, no, no, I didn't mean that. So it didn't happen well, Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 13:01 right? That's right. But the other piece to it is harming a child is a strong word, no parent ever gets it all right all the time. So sometimes it's about the repair. So you know, if you're learning some of these skills yourself about our how to label your carrier feeling and help your child label how he or she was feeling, it's, the parent becomes more skillful. And if you recognize that you did something that retrospectively feel you didn't handle, well, you can be transparent. And say, you know, I was just thinking about what happened this morning. And I'm really sorry, because you are looking so sad, and I didn't really give you a chance to tell me more about it. Would you like to do that? And the time, I'd say yes or no, yeah, the thing is, a very important piece of social emotional learning is this self regulation. And some parents are not well regulated. And it my work, and my work includes research and clinical, academic teaching and so forth. I always start with helping the parent regulate, because if the parent gets triggered by the child's behavior, and then they get upset, and they sort of get aroused and Rabat, that's only gonna create this child's dysregulation, essentially. So no matter what the first step is for the parent, to stay calm. And I think it's very helpful for parents to be explicit about it. Like let's say, you know, you ask your child 10 times to do something, they didn't do it and you're getting annoyed and you know, you're just sort of going up the scale. You can say, you know, yeah, I'm going up the scale or I use the monitors, killing thermometers, but whatever we want to talk about. And I don't want to start yelling, you know, that's not going to help us. So I'm gonna take a minute because I know it helps me, if I take a few deep breaths. So you are you're modeling for the child that you are working on controlling your reactions. So rather than being reactive, you want to be responsive. But you're modeling that. And, you know, you have to have a strategy. One, one part is noticing when you get aroused, or the parent, being able to monitor and knowing what's the point of no return, so to speak, and at some point, forget it. They can't really talk about it in a logical way. But then you have to know what to do. And so, you know, I usually have family activities, where everybody talks about the different ways they control themselves, or calm themselves down, or cope with stress. That's a very, very important piece Dana Jonson 16:13 is a parent understanding themselves and being able to control and regulate? Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, I find almost impossible for me to identify myself, I have to be able to rely on, we have this thing, and I'm very, like, I'm loud. My hands are always going I'm all over the place. And my husband's like, super chill. And so my yelling and his yelling are two different things. I remember he wants raised his voice once, and the kids don't yell at Mommy. And he his response was she yells at me. And they said, Yeah, but that's how she talks. And it was funny for me to be like, Oh, they so differentiate between us, like how I am compared to myself, not how I am compared to him. And I just thought that was fascinating to me that they had picked up on that little bit that they they were aware, they didn't think I was yelling all the time, you know, because there has been my personality. And I just, to me, that was showing me how in tune. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 17:19 The kids are. Exactly. Kids are incredibly attuned to the parents, emotional state. And like even toddlers, you could see a toddler, if he sees the mom looking sad, go over, and you know, sort of comfort the parent. Now, they don't even really understand what they're doing. But it's, it's in the air. It's an exquisite skill that children have. And, you know, parents might try to mask it, which is hard. I mean, I'm working with a very depressed mom right now. You know, she's doing her best to function normally. But I can't imagine her children don't pick something up. Dana Jonson 18:11 Yeah. And I hear that a lot too, with parents when they either they have something major to tell their kids, whether it's a divorce, or separation or move or what have you. And they've been waiting to tell them for some reason. And I always ask them, like, did they know? Like, did they know where they have set? And, you know, a lot of the time it's like, oh, they had a sentence, or they were relieved that whatever was was said, because they knew something was coming. You know, like, they're just, I think we as adults like to pretend that we're tricking them, but we're really not. You know, we've we've trained them to tell us what we want to hear. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 18:46 Yeah. And, you know, we we want to protect them. Yes. That's just an instinct. Can always, you know, that doesn't mean that you can help them deal with, I often say anxiety is catching. You know, it might be situation where were you just a word about it? And say, you know, yeah, you know, you recognize that, you know, this is normal behavior for mommy, which is different than normal behavior for daddy. And that's fine. People are different. You know, the thing about social emotional, oh, join us. Good question. I'm sorry, I Dana Jonson 19:36 was I was muted. I was just saying I think it's important for them to be able to distinguish between personality and emotion and feeling and my oldest is neurodiverse as nonverbal learning disabilities so so it's very difficult for her to identify any of those social cues that we take for granted. You know, but so to be able to distinguish between them That's your personality, you're fiery, and you're loud versus someone who's fiery and loud as me, or mad or angry or right. however you define it, it's much more complicated than we think. And we still take it for granted. I'm curious, how do you approach families, because sometimes I run into this where families say, they just need to suck it up. They just need to get through, they need to get a tougher skin. And I've been that parent, where I said, Oh, my God, my kids are snowflakes, what is happening, but at the same time, I think about the pain that I experienced, not being able to share my emotions with somebody or not being able to identify them myself. So I'm coming from that perspective. But how do you reach a parent who maybe doesn't see that the benefit necessarily they know their kid needs it, but they're not internalizing it? Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 20:58 Well, that goes back to the research of what we're learning. So social emotional learning, which is the title that have sole users this consortium, it could be called Emotional intelligence, or emotional literacy. It's also referred to as non cognitive skills, and in our schools are all about academics, and cognitive development, language development, and achievement, which all plays into it, right. But if a child is not regulated, the child is distracted. If a child is in a stress response, if a child is feeling anxious, they're not taking in the information. They're not absorbing, and integrating what the teacher is saying. So there have been over 20 years of research, I mean, way more short term and long term studies, showing that there is a relationship between better social emotional skills and academic performance. There is relationship between social emotional skills, and relationships, and self awareness, and behavior, in school and at home. So I consider it What should I say, I never said this before the word just came into my mind, like a nest, ah, this is social emotional learning. And then you build all the academic cognitive skills. But if you're not pressing, right now, you're not really learning optimally. Dana Jonson 22:51 Yes. And I, we actually experienced that as well, one of one of my children, who, between evaluations, their IQ went up, and I'm using air quotes that you can't see right now went up 16 points. And at her age, that's not your IQ doesn't make that kind of lead BNL in that short period of time, and she had gone from an environment that was not safe to her in her mind, and had to spend not just to enter into a safer environment, she had to spend a great deal of time in that safer environment, before she became available for learning. And that's how we looked at it because I was like, there's not suddenly this, what was I, what I was thrilled about her educational environment at the time is that it was meeting those safety needs. And that was my only priority for her at the time. And the academics came, you know, like, everything went up when we only focused on making sure she felt safe. And that was our only priority. That's when she did well academically. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 24:03 Well, you're you're exactly right. And, you know, safety is. What could I say? Without that? Yeah, any of this is not going to develop. So you know, children that experience a lot of trauma. Number one need safety and trust in relationships. Another thing about you know, trauma and how it relates to this. I think we underestimate the amount of trauma people have in life. I mean, there's a lot of studies about this now from trauma informed cares, like the name of the game. It's a cat two days, it's the buzz phrase, right? But let's just say your child has ADHD, there's a separate from trauma, the extra energy that they need to pay attention to stay seated to, especially if they're have the hyperactive pace to modulate their body It is exhausting. And so even that takes away from Dana Jonson 25:05 learning. Right. And I think people forget that when kids are exhausted, they don't roll over and go to sleep, they tend to have a fit, you know, they tend to keep going in their exhausted state. They're not aware enough to rest. And I think we forget Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 25:23 that. Yeah. And also, we see it in the transition from school to home. Because, you know, the teacher will say, here's a behavior problem, and we've been doing fine, and he has some friends, you know, and then the child comes home and opens the door, and he has a temper tantrum and totally escalates. And the parents thing that's going on? I mean, is this different kids? In my family child that's in school, very common number that I hear that all the time? Dana Jonson 25:56 How do you help schools bridge that gap? How do your parents and schools how do you, you know, I have that happen a lot. Obviously, with my clients, I have my clients or children with disabilities, and a lot of the time they are holding it together to the best of their ability from morning to dismissal, and then they get home. And there's nothing left. There's, you know, emotional control, there's no making the child happy. There's no nothing like they've just been pushed over the edge. But the school is seeing a great kid that's being social and talking to friends and doing their work. And I'm in the parents are seeing a kid that's about to blow, how do we help bridge that gap? Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 26:41 Well, a couple of ideas. One is, because this is so common. One knows what you can do at home. So to be articular Babbitt and then have maybe a transition ritual with the child, because you're anticipating, and you make that obvious and you know, the ritual might be what's the most common thing you can do with the child at that moment? Is it to give them something to eat? Or is it to have them do some kind of physical, aerobic kind of activity, whatever it is, but make it over and think about, this is just what the parent can do think about creating a coming home ritual. As a therapist, when I work with families, everything is a suggestion, because we never really know what's going to work. A lot of it's trial and error. But for some families that works in terms of the school. And I've been doing this work a long time, I mean, training related service providers, because I'm also rotate training related service providers and training, special educators and changing psychologist and you know, people from different domains in this area with different perspectives. Yeah. And the, there are so many more opportunities for parents to get information that could help them. I always say, don't pass the OT what she's doing to help the child regulate in the classroom, because maybe she has some ideas for you. I mean, there's not enough transparency and communication between well, some parents and some schools do this very well. I mean, you know, I did some studies in Fairfield County, and there are some school districts, some districts, but there's some communities that do it very well. I was still my work was in New York City, and Dana Jonson 28:53 different animal in New York City. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 28:56 And so, sometimes there's absolutely no communication and cancer or our have a right to information. And they would benefit a great deal because they want other ideas. Are there strategies? Is there something that's working in school because there's a behavior plan seemed to work in schools, that's something we should try it at home? Dana Jonson 29:23 Right. And from a, you know, from a specialist attorney perspective, I would also look at that as you know, parent training from a school perspective. Another thing that I often recommend for parents is evaluations. And if they think that they are seeing a completely different child than their school district, and they're not able to bridge that gap, that either bringing in the private therapists that they're working with to give their input or collaborating with the school to get an outside evaluation, maybe somebody who isn't in school because of people in school aren't seeing But the parents are staying and the parents aren't seeing what school is seeing the maybe we need somebody completely separate, to come in and tell us where all these pieces connect. And I find that to sometimes be the hardest thing. And once we can make that connection, and everyone can see how all those pieces work together and how home is impacting school and vice versa, then we can start putting pieces into place. How would you advise parents or teachers who think you know, we have a gap, we need to bridge bridge this gap? Where can we get the information we need? Who should they be going to for that assessment or Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 30:40 instruction? Well, you're talking about quite a few different things. So that's probably, so let's see if I can answer it in a way that's helpful. Schools are mandated to every child has an IEP to decide on placement and services to enhance their academic performance. That's as a threatened. I'm suggesting academic performances is not as narrow a lane, as they say, I did special ed policy research for a decade. And, you know, there's such variability in terms of a school district partnering and believing in strength base, partnering with parents in understanding what the parents concerns are, what their priorities are, as opposed to, you know, let's look at the IEP and look at the various specifics skill. Now, sorry, think about all the trial, right. So parents have a right to request a meeting, if a child has an IEP, parents have a right to have the child evaluated, if they feel there's a problem. Usually it comes from the school, suggesting to the parent, however, I know, parents instinct, lets them know something's not quite right. And so they need the validation. They may feel for years. I just think there's something that he he's not getting. And then grade three, you still can't read. He's very frustrated. And he has a lot outburst in the parent knew, right and we are diagnosing earlier and earlier or diagnosing. I mean now, where it is approved to diagnose children as young as four with ADHD, which was not the case before, but I know into a preschool and look in the classroom and identify two to three children that are neuro diverse. And yeah, I'm a preventionist. I mean, my doctorates and a couple of Cal, but I'm all about prevention. And if a child has a neurobiological disability, you really can do prevention work in terms of his emotional life, and not feeling I'm not good enough. I'm a bad boy. You know, I hear those things from children all the time, and they're devastating for parents. Dana Jonson 33:30 Yeah. But I think we don't realize too, that by calling a child a good boy, indicates to the other children, then they are bad. Like, I think they're little pieces of language that we we've become very careless with our language, I think. And I think that is part of our social emotional problem. Because when you're careless with your language, you're sending messages that maybe you didn't intend to send. And, and I think it's in my lifetime, that we've actually as a society started to acknowledge that kids have feelings. You know, I know, when I was little that was at the forefront of the conversation, you know, and even my mom talks about when she was pregnant, there was only one patient. Yeah, it was the mom. Right. So it started right from there. So, you know, I think that we are definitely coming into a new understanding even though these ideas and concepts and knowledge have been around forever. I think as a society, we have not been taking it seriously. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 34:31 Well, I think you're absolutely right. The power of language. Good, bad, you know, really, you want to describe behavior, you know, Oh, you did you finish that assignment very well. And you know, that was great because you're being a good student or whatever. You you talk about the behavior. I had an experience in 1971, which gives A little bit of indication of how long I've been in the parenting field. And we were doing a prevention program in Spanish Harlem with little kids. And everything was about the children know that colors, they know, shapes, and it was all conquer cognitive and language. And I have worked in mental health. And so this was a research project that really funded until I started saying to the parents, what do you like about your child? I'm telling you, they struggled with answers. So this piece of recognizing someone's emotional life and how much that impacts performance and relationships. I mean, even I do a lot of work and Headstart programs, and 1965, the purpose of Headstart was to help children develop social competence. It was an academic readiness. Because if you think about right, you know, what do you need to be a successful adult? Well, you may not need algebra, as much as getting along with your co workers are having a decent round. Dana Jonson 36:18 Yes. And I had that conversation, an IEP meeting the other day for a kid who's super smart. And I thought, yeah, he is. But he also can't make eye contact. If he doesn't like how you look, he will tell you like, there are things that are not acceptable in society that this child does. And regardless of the cognitive abilities, they won't be successful. And that is what we're looking at when you talk about education being much more global than academics. And it is, and that's something that I remind IP teams of all the time, you know, for a middle school, we're talking about a middle schooler, and this kid does not have any friends, that is not typical. And that is going to be more important to that student than anything else. So if we're not taking seriously what kids take seriously, then we're not acknowledging their feelings, their thoughts, what's going on in their lives. And I mean, they're human too, right? They this is their brains are developing to what they're going to be as adults, now's the best time for them to learn how to do all that stuff. I just don't believe that kids have to be in pain to learn what makes it hard to learn. Yes, I think we have that, right. Like if somebody if a kid is enjoying their class, there's this question like, are they actually learning anything? They seem like they're having too much fun? You know, we have to think that's sort of a weird thing. Well, thank you, I so appreciate all of this information. I think it's so important for families and schools to understand that this this social emotional learning piece, and you did touch on it, but it's also a little different than emotional IQ, or those pieces like how will you know yourself. It's more about social emotional learning, it builds, these things can be learned skill develop, to Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 38:11 be modeled back to be practiced. I think the good takeaway for whoever's listening to this is becoming more comfortable with emotional coaching. And that's a term comes from John Gottman, which really means no matter what's going on, you connect emotionally with the child first. So you say, you know, I say you're really angry because you're raising your voice, and I get it, because your sister keeps taking your toys. So you're validating how the child feels, no matter how they feel a feeling is the feeling needs to be respected. So before you say, but don't hit your sister. First, say, you know, label of feeling validated. If you don't really understand if you can't make the connection say, but what what's going on? Tell me what I don't understand why you're so frustrated. And then you can give the couldn't give guidance, you can make a demand, you can make a request. It just means that the child feels understood, and they will listen to you. And this goes for all relationships. Dana Jonson 39:36 It takes them off the defensive. Yeah, Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 39:39 I mean, everybody wants to feel understood. And Oh, Mommy gets it. Yes. And, you know, mommy's that. I should. I can't hit her. Okay. That doesn't mean it's not going to hit her. It means that he has to substitute right a different action for demonstrating has Question for just sister. Dana Jonson 40:02 I love that the way you phrase that it's it's about finding a different way to express it. Right? You're identifying. I see you feel that way I get it. That's valid. But doing that when you feel that way is not how we do it. When you feel that way, you've got to do something different. Let's figure out what that something different is. And yeah, so it's looking at what's, what's the outcome? I've said that to you before I do want the child to feel bad about themselves? Or do you want to change the behavior, which is the goal? And thinking of it that way? Because I think sometimes we feel like that's character building as an adult, right. Going through those tough things and toughing it out. But, you know, wouldn't it be better to have the tools to get through it rather than have it out? I'm not too proud to use, though. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 41:01 It's complex, but it is Dana Jonson 41:03 it is. So So Dr. Grossman, tell me if somebody is listening to this, and they're saying, Oh, my gosh, you speak my truth. You're the only person who gets me and I need to talk to Dr. Grossman, how are they going to find you, and reach out to you and find your world, Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 41:18 I am only practicing on Zoom. Now. Since the pandemic, I gave up my office in the city and I had to have an office here. I'm taking select cases, because I also teach and so forth and so on. But I can be reached at Judy.Grossman928@gmail.com Dana Jonson 41:43 Great. And I will have that information in the show notes along with the other other links to some things that we've discussed during this episode. And I can't thank you enough it really this is such an important a hot topic. And I came across it because I was I attended a presentation that you gave and and I think that was well attended as well. I really think that social emotional learning is on the swing. Thank God in our community in our on our society. So thank you so much for all the work you do, and for sharing this information with parents. Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 42:16 Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. I'm happy to do it. Dana Jonson 42:20 Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to follow this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there's anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I'll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speaker's at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company or even that individual today.

[iframe style="border:none" src="//html5-player.libsyn.com/embed/episode/id/24802530/height/100/width//thumbnail/yes/render-playlist/no/theme/custom/tdest_id/2148560/custom-color/61ce70" height="100" width="100%" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen oallowfullscreen msallowfullscreen] A Due Process Hearing is just one of the dispute resolution options available to parents of children with special education needs. But what is a Due Process Hearing? In special education, Due Process Hearings are not often fully adjudicated, because the issues are resolved through some form of settlement. In fact, I'm pretty sure special education is the only civil right we negotiate away. For those fully adjudicated, parents rarely win. The school has significantly more resources (from their administrative staff to their on call attorney). Parents simply don't have the same legal, financial, and emotional ability to pursue and complete a full due process hearing. And that is why it is so exciting when a parent wins!!   Today, we look at due process hearings through the lens of one specific case in Connecticut in which the Parents prevailed. Meredith Braxton is a special education attorney in private practice in Greenwich, CT (bio below), who recently prevailed in an interesting due process hearing right here in Connecticut. We discuss the process, the facts, and the final decision as we break down this special education due process hearing.   Meredith C. Braxton, Esq., has been practicing law for 32 years, with a primary focus on special education for 20 years. After spending time in general and business litigation in "big law" in New York City and two smaller Connecticut firms, Meredith started a solo practice and began representing students and parents in their efforts to enforce their civil rights by having their children identified, securing appropriate services, and enforcing their rights to appropriate placements, whether via PPT, negotiation, an administrative due process hearing, or appeal to the federal courts. Her office is in Greenwich. Meredith is also a partner in a companion practice with her colleague Liz Hook (Braxton Hook) to represent families in New York in special education matters and individuals in both Connecticut and New York in education-related civil rights and tort cases as well as employment matters.   The full decision can be found here.   You can find Meredith's contact info here.   FLASHBACK: If you are curious about other dispute resolution options, you can check out the episodes What's the Deal with Mediation, State Complaints, and Special Ed 101!   Check out this episode!   TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDSwitnesses, hearing, decision, officer, felt, parents, child, school district, case, board, argument, student, attorney, people, meredith, thought, footnotes, understand, works, remedy   SPEAKERS Meredith Braxton, Esq., Dana Jonson   Dana Jonson  00:08 All right. Welcome back to Special Ed on special ed. Thank you for coming back and joining me today. Today I am meeting with Meredith Braxton one of my favorite Special Ed attorneys from Connecticut. Hello, Meredith. Thank you for joining me.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  00:21 Good morning.   Dana Jonson  00:22 Good morning, we're going to discuss a case in which Meredith prevailed and discuss the components of a due process hearing, or decision, or pleading or all of that, through this one case, in which Meredith prevailed. But before we say one word, I'm gonna play my disclaimer for you all. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. All right, Meredith. First of all, congratulations. This is awesome. You're welcome. This is a 54 page decision. There are four issues at the beginning that you raised 176 findings of fact, about 36 conclusions of law. And at the very end, there are nine orders. So that's a little overwhelming. And this is a final decision and order. And I'm a lawyer, and I was so excited when I got this when we all heard that you had prevailed, and we got to read it. And even I'm overwhelmed with 54 pages. So I want to start by, I want to read the actual issues that are listed in the decision. And then I want you to sort of tell us how we got here, if that works. Okay, so the first of the four issues in the final decision in order are, has the board denied the student a free appropriate education or a faith for the previous two years by habitually failing to record the PPT decision in prior written notice? We're going to come back to that one, too. Does the current IEP and placement deny the student faith? Three, should the hearing officer place the student in a residential therapeutic school for students with CP or cerebral palsy? And if necessary, order the board to hire an educational consultant to identify a placement for the student? And for is the student entitled to compensatory education, which would be education to make up for education missed? So those are some pretty loaded issues. Why don't you take us back to the beginning and tell us what happened.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  02:54 First of all, this client is an amazing kid. And I actually spoke to her recently, she's really happy at man's two right now. So great, really thrilled. So I'm really glad we got there, I was actually brought in after the kiss was pretty well set up. There was a lay advocate involved who did a really good job, got some amazing ies, you know, independent educational evaluations from I mean, some of the most qualified people I have ever run across, they were really, super, she also has a super medical team, you know, all of whom, even though some of them were out of state, they weren't totally willing to testify, you know, and give me not very much time, but some time to educate the hearing officer about the student's conditions.   Dana Jonson  03:46 And that's an important component is that there's a difference between what is a medical responsibility and an educational responsibility. And as you and I know, a lot of times those responsibilities overlap, correct, making it incredibly difficult to get anyone to provide.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  04:03 Yes, yes, but these medical providers were very well able to connect what was going on with her medically to what was going on with her educationally. So that's amazing. They were really, really helpful. But when this case first came to me, I wanted to file for due process, but I was always until the very end, I was always really concerned about the remedy, right? Because you don't know which hearing officer you're going to get. And if you're not able to put specific remedy out there you just don't know where that hearing officer is going to go with it. So we have not found a placement for this student yet. She's very difficult to place because she has you know, high cognition, but her physical disabilities are profound and urgent Communication Difficulties are profound. So there's just not a lot of places, you know, for that profile.   Dana Jonson  05:06 And that's an important piece to understanding what you want. Because we run into that problem a lot with families where they know something's wrong, they know it's not working, but they don't know what will work or what they do want. And that makes it really, really hard for us. Because and I explained this to clients a lot. You could go through a due process, hearing, and win on every single issue, and not get the remedy you wanted, right. And I think the example I use is, you could go into a hearing, asking for an out of district placement, go through the entire hearing, and have the hearing officer say, you are right, the school didn't do anything they should have done. But I think that school can create a program. So I'm going to order them to do that instead of residential, and now you've gone through the entire expense of winning a hearing. Right, and you're not getting any remedy. So that is a very concerning component that I don't think people   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  06:05 realize, and I really wasn't willing, you know, I advised my client that I just didn't feel comfortable filing until we had better direction there. So but as time went on, first of all, she was able to eke out a little money to find an ad consultant. And this ad consultant was really great. He was wonderful to work with. And I couldn't stand it anymore. I felt like Greenwich was torturing this, like literally torturing this kid, because, you know, I was on the back end of every email, and phone call, and what they were doing to I couldn't take it anymore. I really just I couldn't take it anymore. So I was like, Okay, we just have to file we have to get this hearing going. And hopefully, by the time we get to the end of the hearing, we will have a remedy in mind and we won't have a placement. We almost got there. Not quite but you know, it turned out okay. But that was a little bit of a, you know, risk that we took, but what was going on was so unacceptable, that that you know, as a moral proposition.   Dana Jonson  07:17 Right. Right. And I think that's where school districts don't realize they really messed up is when they one of us off? Yeah, is you know, when one of us is even in the grand scheme of everything we've seen and experienced if we get off, we're like a dog with a bone. Yeah.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  07:34 Yeah.   Dana Jonson  07:36 Don't do this. Don't get out of my way.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  07:37 Yeah, yeah. That's how we sort of got to filing the various issues that wound up being presented. Actually, we didn't even really address the faith based on not recording PVT decisions appropriately, even though they did not I was gonna ask   Dana Jonson  07:55 you about that. Because now in the in the new IEP, which I've yet to see, in case you're wondering, every school district I'm dealing with is like, yeah, we'll deal with that later. I gotta get back to school right now. So talk to me after Christmas.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  08:11 What I'm what I'm hearing from them is it's taking them six hours to fill out the new form exactly this new   Dana Jonson  08:17 convenient form that was going to take less time. But there's no prior written notice in it now.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  08:23 But I thought the prior written notice was supposed to be a separate document, but I have a separate one here.   Dana Jonson  08:27 But we haven't seen any documents yet. So I think that this is a really interesting point about the prior written notice. Because what that means in that issue, for those who don't understand is that decisions were made in the IEP meeting that need to be documented in the IEP, because they were either accepted or refused. And when a school does,   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  08:51 the more the even more important piece of that is they're supposed to record why they did right. Or important part and the data they relied on to get there, right, which is usually how you can point out how freakin absurd their decision was. Right? Exactly. Because   Dana Jonson  09:09 this is my favorite is on I had one where they made the decision based on grades and performance. And the child had modified work and modified grades. So it was like, Well, wait a second. understand all of this.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  09:26 My favorite is where they deny, like a residential placement. And they say it's based on the independent evaluation, you gave them that recommended residential place.   Dana Jonson  09:36 Fabulous. Yeah. So it's based on that because we read it. And that's how we read it. And we rejected all of it. Yeah. So actually, that leads me to my next question, which is, you know, after you read the issues, and the piece on why the hearing officer has jurisdiction, we get to your 176 findings of fact. And so the findings of fact, are sort of the meat and potatoes, is that right of the   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  10:03 of the you don't you don't get to conclusions of law without those findings of fact, they're the   Dana Jonson  10:08 evaluation of your due process demand, right? findings of fact are what you base everything else on. So how does the hearing officer determine what the findings of fact, are? Like? Do you provide those in your brief or your due process demand? Or how does the hearing officer come to determine which facts are actual facts?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  10:29 So the post hearing brief is, is always proposed findings and facts and conclusions of law. And, you know, I can track through this decision the places where he definitely adopted, you know, what I wrote in my brief, but there's a lot of it where he had his own thing going and this particular hearing officer, who unfortunately has been picked off by virtue Moses, since then, he listened so carefully works for birch and Moses now, yeah, they hired him right after his case.   Dana Jonson  11:00 Sorry, I can't help but laugh.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  11:01 I know. It's so upsetting. Speaking of absurd, yeah. Anyway, so he listened really carefully to all the witnesses and clearly was focusing on their credibility. And I could tell I was landing the punches, you know, as I was going on, and he was getting them. And the one that was really telling was, you know, there's a principle in examining witnesses for trial lawyers where, you know, if you've got a hospital, first of all, he did go with the school district employees who I called, on my case, were hostile witnesses who I was allowed to ask leading questions. Great. So a lot of our hearing officers won't go there. And it makes it harder, because you have to do direct examination with non leading questions, right, anyway.   Dana Jonson  11:52 Right, I mean, that's getting a little in the weeds. But for parents who don't understand that, as attorneys, when we examine a witness, we are bound by certain restrictions, we can't just ask them anything, we can't just suddenly blurt out stuff, right. Like, we have to have a foundation, we have to lead them to a certain place, we have to have demonstrated certain things and have specific items and evidence. And there's a process and if you don't go through the process, you don't get your information across. So one of the ways in which we ask questions is, we ask leading questions all the time in our day, across the day, and you're not allowed to do that, unless they're, especially with your children, especially with your children, right, we're trained to write to ask leading witness. And that's why children shouldn't be witnesses, because you can lead them. So we really have to be cautious about that. And so then it depends on the hearing officer as to what they will allow, and they have a significant amount of leeway in what they will allow or not allow. So it sounds like this hearing officer was really focused on understanding the issues   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  12:58 he really was. So one of the principles for examining witnesses from the other side, is, if you land your point, you don't go on to ask like the ultimate question, because then that clues them in that they just messed up, and they will go back and they'll fix it. You instead use that nugget in your argument later on. So that's how we roll I got one of the school district witnesses to say that she made all the decisions in the PPTs. And so I'm sliding away from that, because I'm like, hopefully, like guaranteed, and, of course, returning picked up on   Dana Jonson  13:35 that. But whatever. That's kind of a mess.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  13:38 I'm going on, going on to the next thing. And the hearing officer goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then he starts questioning her and she doesn't fix it. She doubles down on it. And then I'm cross her attorney tried to save her and she didn't go for it. So she basically got predetermination. That's amazing lack of parental participation. So the hearing officer in this case, he really listened. And he was sort of going through issues in his own head clearly the whole thing about you know, in his findings of fact, in his conclusions of law, he talked a lot about how the school district had the wrong primary disability for this child and that how it drove an inappropriate IEP. Now you and I know that's actually true. Most of the time, if you have the wrong primary disability, it does, to some extent derive. You know, services. Absolutely. Schools always say is no, we give whatever services are needed, no matter what the primary handicap is, blah, blah, blah. I felt like that was just a loser of an argument for me like when I didn't want to spend a lot of time on. I had so many other issues that I thought were really compelling and really important, and that would win the case. It was funny because he kept bringing it up. During the hearing, and I was like, Yeah, you know, and I didn't really press it with witnesses, but he did. You know, he would ask witnesses his own questions,   Dana Jonson  15:09 and I find that fascinating about hearings is that the hearing officer can and will just stop everything and be like, I have some follow ups. I need you to clarify that. Yeah. I love it when we hear a hearing officer ask questions, because all that says is, oh, they're listening. Yeah, do get it because not all hearing officers really do get it. Not all of them have been doing what we do our whole lives. And we have to not only explain to them the process, the law but the disability.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  15:35 Right, right. And this one is very low incidence. So it's particularly difficult to convey what it's like, like I said, we had a, especially her physiatrist was really great at describing what it was like to be, I'm allowed to use her name, she doesn't care. Okay. So you know what it was like to be Sydney. And that really got to the hearing officer. So did the videotapes of what was going on on the bus ride. Wow, I thought, did you get those? Well, they're an educational record. They're a four year record. And I was like a dog with a bone. And I did when I filed, I also served an Administrative Code document request. And so at the very beginning of the hearing, when you're sort of like, what housekeeping items do you have, I'm like, I'm asking for these documents. And these videos, they haven't given them to me, I can't do this hearing without it, and I got him to order them to be given to me. So I find   Dana Jonson  16:36 that I don't always get everything in a FERPA request. There's never I get everything. Shocking, really. It's shocking, really, but and in my FERPA request, I have a laundry list of things I would like included, and then I just hope I get most of it. You know, videos, and particularly bus videos, I think have to be the hardest things to obtain. That's just my experience. It's just a lot of red tape to get your hands on those videos. So that is huge. Yeah. So you provide your findings of fact, the board attorney is going to provide there's right. So what the hearing officer chooses is going to be based on the testimony. Right. Right. And so that's your point in your testimony is to demonstrate what actually happened, right, I presume you had good witnesses and parents for this? Because I know for me, anytime I contemplate whether this is something that would go to due process or not. The first thing I think of is Who are my witnesses? Yeah. And my first thought is can either parent be witness, and that sometimes makes the decision?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  17:49 You know? Yes, I had one due process where, I mean, the hearing officer literally hated my client. And he was difficult. He was a difficult person. He was a difficult person, like, I liked him. But you know, I'm weird. But she ruled for us anyway. And I was a little I mean, she even dropped a footnote about how she didn't believe that I love that. Yeah, yeah. So it's very important. The parent is very important. Sometimes, like, in this case, I had the parent, but as a backup, I also had her sister who had quit her job to help Sydney, you know, during COVID, and was, I mean, had basically been in her life the whole time. So it was very, sort of a corroborating witnesses if I needed it. Or it could be the primary witness about what was happening during remote instruction, and stuff like that. So yeah,   Dana Jonson  18:45 and I see you guys had 11 witnesses, and the board only called to it looks like,   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  18:50 Yeah, cuz I called all her witnesses on my case.   Dana Jonson  18:54 You called them all first, so that you could get that done with   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  18:56 in this, you know, in this particular school district, I find that the attorney, if you do this, if you if you call her witnesses on your case, and she often hasn't glommed on to what your their themes are, and doesn't really prepare her witnesses. Well got it. Well, I can tell my stories through them. And they're the people I had first, and the hearing officer had a little issue with it. He was like, aren't you gonna call them? And I'm like, Oh, get there?   Dana Jonson  19:27 Yeah, well, because mom's usually number one, right? Yeah, I don't like doing like that. Well, good. That's, that's great. You should talk to my lawyer about that, because she was working really, really hard to figure out how to not put me because for all of those parents out there who've heard you wouldn't be a good witness and make and took it personally and felt bad. I was informed I would be a horrible witness. So I'm an attorney who does this every day. So you know, don't feel bad about it. So you called everyone that you needed for your case and the hearing officer allowed you to treat the school personnel as if they were hostile. So that is huge. You know, it sounds like we got a really great hearing officer and then a board firm just snatched them up immediately.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  20:12 It did save money, how that works about that   Dana Jonson  20:16 money how that works. I wanted to touch on the timeframe to because you filed on October 12, in 2021. And your briefs were due in March 28 2022. And that is actually only five months, I was actually thinking for a hearing that went through so many witnesses that you would conclude this and only five months, I was kind of impressed. And to tell   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  20:43 you the truth, this included a month or two of me foot drag. Oh, wow. Because I was I was foot dragging. Because we didn't have that placement. Right. I was like, you know, Brenton, come on. So I delayed things a little bit. And then I decided I gotta go, Yeah, this has got to get going. Right, the hearing officer made it really clear that he was feeling pressure from the State Bureau of Special Education, to move these hearings along faster. You know, they're getting very concerned about their timeline issues as they should, as they can. Absolutely. He assured me and I felt with, you know, after we'd been going at this a little bit, I felt like I could believe him about this, that I could always just refer to an exhibit, and he would read it. And I felt like he would read. Okay, so some hearing officers, you really have to have every single bit like presented orally to them, or they focus on it. But in this case, I felt like I could rely on him to read the exhibits that were admitted. I sped through some of this stuff. Yeah, I mean, the medical people, I probably had a an average 30 to 45 minutes with them, half of which I seated to the other side. Right, wow. Yeah. And so I was like, bang, bang, but I had one day when I had like six witnesses, I blew through six witnesses, that's insane. I then laid down on the floor of my office and made it like an IV of vodka, but it was intense. But it made the hearing officer very happy, they do appreciate it. And I kind of liked it, because I was able to get all the really important stuff in and then the other side was kind of limited and what they could do with it. You know, they were also limited. The you know, in the end, I kind of liked it, even though I ordinarily would,   Dana Jonson  22:43 yes. Where are you for this matter? It worked for this matter for this hearing   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  22:47 officer, you know, so much depends on the hearing officer get and what their style   Dana Jonson  22:53 is. Yeah. And I hear that a lot from parents, do you have experience with this district? Do you have experience with this lawyer? And all of those things do matter. But I feel like the experience matters more in knowing how to shift because all those players change all the time. And I've had evaluators where I felt like I could just leave the room and they'd be fine. And then the next tvip meeting, I go to them, I'm like, Who is this pot person? Like what did they do to my evaluators? So you just never know, there's a lot up in the air,   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  23:26 you don't know. And that's what I try to convey to my clients about due process. It's a high risk situation, because you don't know which hearing officer you're gonna get. You don't know what pressures they have on them, because they are getting pressure from above, you don't really know how the evidence is going to come in. You don't know whether some of the board people who you think are charlatans are going to come across as believable. You don't know if you're going to be able to get in every document that you think you need to get in. I got a lot out of those board witnesses that have they been better prepared and probably would not have. Yeah, and that   Dana Jonson  24:03 preparation is big. I mean, the prep is big for your clients, too. I remember a colleague telling me I mean, when you're talking about how is someone going to present colleague was telling me they had a client and the school had really messed up. But this was an exceptionally wealthy client who came across as exceptionally wealthy when she walked in a room. And so she was asked to dial it down. So she walked in to the hearing and her kids dinner, blue jeans and a T shirt and no jewelry. And the board almost dropped dead. Really, because they were relying on this person to walk in and look like an extremely wealthy person and present the way she normally does and hoping that that in and of itself would sway the hearing officer. But then she walked in and they're their philosophy has gotten now a good attorney doesn't rely on just that. Right. But to your point, people can present as anything when they walk in that door. Yeah, and they can Say anything. So, like if you if you have someone on the line on the stand and they are flat out lying. What do you do?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  25:08 Well, I mean, it depends on whether I have documentary evidence that I can confront them with that shows they're flat out lying. If this is where a lot of times you do want to have at least partial transcripts of various meetings and recordings. So they can't claim they said something other than what they did. And it's a problem, because in my experience, almost I would say 95% of board, witnesses lie under oath. Yep. And have no problem with it. Yeah.   Dana Jonson  25:38 And it's shocking, sometimes to parents. Right.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  25:41 And absolutely, I mean, honestly, when I first started practicing law, many, many, many moons ago, I was shocked, I assumed that everyone who was put under oath would tell the truth. And then I learned that actually a minority and people put under oath will tell the truth. It's not just in special education. Yeah, just board witnesses. It's pretty rampant,   Dana Jonson  26:04 pretty rampant. And it's I do think that people take it have a different level of respect, being under oath. I do believe that, as a rule, and I do think that that anxiety is heightened in the person when they are lying under oath versus just in a school meeting, I, I absolutely can see that I can see the change in their body language from lying in the IEP meeting to lying on the stand. They're way more uncomfortable. But that's another reason why I like going to the IEP meetings, because they may be more comfortable there. But you do get a sense of who you can trip up and who you can't. And if the school has bad witness, you make sure they know that.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  26:43 Also, I prefer due process hearings to be in person, because if you've got that body language going on the other side, you can start drilling into it. And sort of push them. Yes. completely out of their comfort zone.   Dana Jonson  26:58 Yes. And that's more difficult on the screen. Oh, it's   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  27:01 impossible.   Dana Jonson  27:02 Have you done any hearings on the screen?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  27:04 Well, this one was completely virtual,   Dana Jonson  27:06 Oh, this one was virtual? I don't think I realized that maybe I must have I mean, maybe just because it's so normal now that I didn't think of it. So that must have been really hard, then I didn't even realize this was virtual.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  27:18 Yeah. It was very hard. That's really hard.   Dana Jonson  27:21 Amazing. Your experiences you would still prefer in person, right?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  27:26 Yeah, for that very reason. Just looking through the screen at someone, you can't hold their eyes, you can't sort of judge their expression. You can't figure out how to destroy them. You can't pick   Dana Jonson  27:42 them apart to the degree that you would like to.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  27:47 So bad, you know, so you're when you're a litigator, you just have to admit that you have a dysfunctional personality. Right? Yes. So that's why we do this, right? Yes, exactly. We got paid for being like completely not the social norm. So   Dana Jonson  28:01 I always say that I do that I'm a lawyer, because I think this way, I don't think this way, because I'm a lawyer isn't the only place that that I fit in. So let's talk a little bit about the remedies. Because from the remedy in the decision, it doesn't look like you ever found that one place, did you?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  28:20 Well, no, we found it afterwards. So may Institute was one of the ones that our ED consultant found that he thought was the leading candidate. Ironically, also, the neuropsychologist who did an independent evaluation had put that out as a recommendation as well. So I was able to direct the hearing officer to an email from him saying, you know, this would be a good place. And also ironically, that particular neuro psychologist, I just, you know, I wasn't in love with his evaluation. And I was very concerned about him as a witness, because I've actually seen him under oath before. And so I elected not to call him interesting. Yeah,   Dana Jonson  29:03 that's a risk. Huge risk, right? Like, because, I mean, at first thing you're gonna hear from any attorney is you want to go to a hearing, you need an expert.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  29:12 Yeah. Well, so but we had all these other experts. And but that's usually the one that we want, right? It's the neuro Psych. Fortunately, he had spoken to that entire medical team, and incorporated what they said in evaluation itself. And then all of those medical experts wrote follow up letters saying we agree with that neuro psychologist, this is what she means. So I called every one of those medical experts got it. And that's how I got it. I mean, and this is what happens in a due process hearing like, I had him on my witness list, in case I had to I had to put them on. As things develop, you have to make decisions about what you're going to do and what's the whole in your case, you know, then I was like one of the holes My case is, what's the remedy? And I don't usually call Educational Consultants, but I did with this one. Also, because he's got lots of bonus CDs, right? He's, he's run a therapeutic school. He's been, you know, he's   Dana Jonson  30:15 got credentials that you can defend. Yeah, I love that. When I get stuff from parents who say, you know, this is the expert. And I'm like, well, they don't have any credentials. No one's ever heard of them. They're in a different country. I don't know that I'm going to get anyone on board.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  30:32 He worked really hard for this placement. I mean, yeah. Beyond what he ever has to do with anyone. I was on a low fee. On this case, he did a low fee on this case. So we've sort of felt like, Okay,   Dana Jonson  30:45 we're gonna do we're in it together. Yeah.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  30:47 And, and one of the things we got as a remedy was that he got paid his full fee.   Dana Jonson  30:54 Oh, good. Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask you about was the remedies, because one of the remedies is when you win a hearing is that you're entitled to your legal fees? Right. So what I'm curious about is when you submit that legal fees Bill, what is that going to look like after 11 witnesses and five months? It was   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  31:15 close to 100,000. It was like 98,000.   Dana Jonson  31:19 There were a few things in terms of parents listening to this just passed out. Yeah. But   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  31:26 that's what I tell my my clients, it's between 50 and 100,000, for average due process. Yeah. And on top of that, you may have to be paying experts. And that's not reimbursable.   Dana Jonson  31:37 Right. So you're not going to get back and that I can't risk, you know, but right, we can always risk our fees, right? Because we can try and get them back. So that does put give you more skin in the game, I guess.   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  31:49 I mean, they pushed back on a couple of things. One of them is definitely legitimate. I put it in there and hope it would just slip by but it didn't, you know? And then there were a couple that were like, arguable. Right? Right. So I just rolled over on that, because I'd rather get it paid. Right. So I want to be reimbursed 92,000?   Dana Jonson  32:11 Well, and I mean, you know, say it's the only civil rights that we negotiate. So parents are always negotiating way their rights. And we as attorneys are always negotiating away our fees. Yeah, we do nothing on the parents side, but negotiate against ourselves from from the beginning. I don't know of very many of any attorneys who have gone through a full hearing and actually received their full BS, they just don't I also find it when when sometimes I hear people say, Oh, well, litigation fees are so much more than, like, we're never seen. No calm down. Take it down a notch. Uh, yeah, I found the remedies really interesting because one remedy said to find the placement and a consultant is ordered. If you can't find a placement, so the the hearing officer did order that consultant as well, correct?   Meredith Braxton, Esq.  33:02 Absolutely. But and the thing with may Institute is they are not going to accept anyone unless they're fully funded, right? Because it's a very expensive

A key component to public education is that it should be FREE! This includes special education. But what if you can't get the special education your child is entitled to? What happens when your school says "no" to you? There are no special education police to force schools to comply or even just tell them they are wrong. Usually, the only way to enforce your rights is to hire back up - an private service provider, non-legal special education advocate, or special education attorney. Being able to hire a special education advocate or attorney, however, is as much a privilege as being able to "evacuate" on a moment's notice. It sounds easy, but it's not easy and it's not free. Especially post(ish)-pandemic, most families do not have the funds required to hire the professional help they need to access their child's "free" rights. Christine Lai is the parent of a child with special education needs who had to fight her school district to get what her child was entitled to. Christine has experienced first hand the strain this puts on already struggling families. That is why Christine founded the Special Education Legal Fund, or SELF. SELF provides grants to parents of children with disabilities to help fund the professional advocacy families need. The grants SELF provides can provide payment towards legal services, a year of non-legal advocacy, or a combination thereof. Today Christine meets with me to discuss why and how families seek out SELF grants, trends in family needs, and the successes they have seen with this program. Maybe you need a SELF organization near you! Want to seek out Christine? You can find her here: https://spedlegalfund.org/ You can always message me at Dana@SpecialEd.fm FLASHBACK: Christine has joined us before! You can check out our last episode together here Transcripts are added shortly after episode is published and can be found at SpecialEd.fm TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDS parents, pandemic, special education, families, attorney, child, school districts, people, support, school, process, absolutely, clients, special ed, advocate, years, law, kids, advocacy, evaluations SPEAKERS Christine Lai, Dana Jonson Dana Jonson 00:08 Today I'm here with Christine Lai. I'm so excited. Thank you for coming back. And joining me at special ed on special ed Christine Lai is the director and founder of the special education legal fund, which I will explain in just a second. Hi, Christine. Thanks for joining me. Hi, Christine Lai 00:24 Dana. I'm so happy to be back. Dana Jonson 00:26 I know I love having you here. Let me play my disclaimer, and then we'll get started. Let's do it. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider license in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. So Christine, first, let me explain to people what special legal fund is, I should probably maybe you could do that. Because your background, you're not like a special ed teacher or you don't provide services, right? Christine Lai 01:04 No, I mean, we are, you know, as we've spoken about in the in the past, we are a Grants making organization, we provide grants to families in need, who have children in the special education process. We provide grants to people who need an attorney, we provide grants to families who need an advocate. And we also provide, you know, some informational resources through our parent webinar series, for parents that are just, you know, really dipping their toe in the process and, or are fully immersed in the process and are just trying to figure out, you know, what the next step is, you know, so that's basically what we do, you know, we were founded in 2018, to provide those resources, the grants, the knowledge, the support, since that time, you know, this is our fifth grant cycle this year. And we have been so blessed with the support of attorneys like Dana to have provided grants of over $550,000, to, you know, almost 200 families in 60 school districts across Connecticut, and Westchester County, New York. And that's been a real blessing for us, we've been really thrilled, because those grants, you know, in total, in that time, have yielded over six and a half million dollars in educational improvements for those families, whether you're talking about better support, better evaluations, out placements, transportation, compensatory education, all of those things kind of roll into that big number, we've been really, really pleased to be able to provide that support for families. Dana Jonson 02:33 And we are we in the advocacy world are thrilled that you can provide that support to families, because one of the things I hate about what I do is that families have to have money to access me. And I can apologize for making a living. And I you know, I'm not going to, but I do recognize that that is a pretty strong barrier. And I think that your program allows a lot of us to give help to parents that we otherwise wouldn't have, wouldn't have access to us. And that's a little bit of what I wanted to talk about with you. Because you're dealing with families who don't have the funds don't have the resources. And oftentimes those families don't even know getting an advocate or an attorney is an option. I know sometimes people call my office and we say you should call self and go that process. But as a rule, people don't usually call you and say I'm calling because I can't afford you and I want information. Although when they do I do still talk to them and give them information. So I'm okay with those phone calls. I don't turn those phone calls away. But I was curious. And we've been through a lot since 2018. What kind of trends do you see with families who can't obtain lawyers because I I'm finding post pandemic and I don't think we're post pandemic, but you know what I mean? Yeah, pose the pandemic closures. Yeah, we're seeing that school districts don't have the resources to handle anybody. Yeah. And I'm finding that it's even harder for parents to get anything without some form of representation or support. No, that's 04:06 absolutely right. We as an organization, the support we provide is to families who are below 300% of the federal minimum poverty line, it was important for us to have a little bit of a range in the families that we support, because I realized that you know, for families that are very, very under resourced, there are other resources that exist, you know, like legal aid or, you know, sliding scale advocacy services or whatever. I know that you don't have to be below the poverty line, to not be able to afford an attorney. You know, that is absolutely, you know, 100% the case, this Fund was established for those families who were maxing out their credit cards, really taking their 401k down, you know, like those families are sort of the core of the group that we envisioned when we started the fund. This doesn't really answer your question. Your question is, yeah, have you seen have we seeing changes in the families. And since it's since the pandemic, since we reopened for the pandemic, I mean, the most significant change that we saw, after the pandemic, after, you know, and I want to say this, going back to like October of 2020, we didn't really know what was going on was going to go in New. And I remember that first month, we had had a virtual fundraiser, we weren't sure, if we were still going to be alive. You know, it was a very, you know, sort of difficult time, you know, in the nonprofit world, and obviously, in all worlds, and we had been running before the closure, you know, maybe five or six applications a month, we had traditionally given three grants per month. So, in a good in any given month, you know, we'd see four applications, we'd decline one, we'd see five, we declined to in October of 20 2015, right off the bat 15 1617. And that was kind of when I knew that this had been a real game changer, not only for the education world, the world in general, but specifically for these families. Because what I was seeing, we're not just, you know, and I don't mean to say just this, that's not what I meant to say. But prior to the payment pandemic, we would see a child who had been in the special education system for years was 14 and couldn't read, you know, very, very dire situation, post pandemic, we would see that same child, but that child would have then also been hospitalized one, two or three times, and then dealing with a crippling anxiety and depression and all of the other kind of ancillary comorbidities that come with, yeah, the predominant learning disorder, and the inability of the school to support that learning disorder. So that's really what we saw as the main difference. The other difference that we saw was as as as to your point, the schools are not able to support what they were able to support four years ago. You know, a few years ago, we would say I'd have a family come and they'd say we'd look we're looking for an outplacement, and I'd say, Okay, why don't you go back and get an IEE? You know, you just had your triennial, you just had an evaluation, go to ask the district for an IE get an independent, neuro Psych. And then after you've gotten that, come back to me, and we will go through this process. And you can go through the outplacement and they would be like, right, and they would go and do that. And they would come back to me and the process would proceed. Now. I don't know of any school district that's like, yeah, here's your IE, you know, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, fighting everything. And that is, that is a real change that we've had to deal with over the last, you know, especially the last couple of years is when that's Dana Jonson 07:40 yeah, that's what we're seeing too. And, and the I II, for anyone listening who doesn't know, we just I just talked about that my last episode is an independent educational evaluation. And for any matter to move forward, you know, the whole IEP, 07:54 it is the linchpin, it is so Lynch is the linchpin, nothing happens without it, you know, exactly. It's like the roadmap, you know, Dana Jonson 08:03 everything from the from everything stems from the event. And as you said, you know, parents have a right to ask for it. They don't have an automatic right to get it. Yes, that's right. And I am finding that school districts who historically would have always granted it 08:23 exact are now fighting them. Exactly. And that's as well. Yeah. And it's not, because it's the you know, as you know, yeah. It's like one of the most important protections that parents have, yeah, process, it is a second opinion, it is so important. And, and if Dana Jonson 08:41 the school is not, if the school is seeing one child, and the family is seeing another child, how are you going, if reconcile is gonna evaluate that child, but that child is behaving differently in school than they are at home? You know, it's not giving you the information that you need. Absolutely. To program. And, you know, and we also see, and I say this all the time post pandemic, every case in our office is mental health and or reading. Yeah, those are both that's, that's, that's exactly. That's what one stem from the other? Yeah, you know, and, and so those evaluations are critical. And we are finding them. I'm a little worried for special education, because I'm finding them being ignored more and more and more, you know, we get the ice in the school district looks at it and says, This is all great new information that we already had were already addressing. Right, right. And you know, it's not successful. Do you find that when parents come to you? Are they coming to you having like, exhausted all their options, or are they coming to you because they don't understand or know what their options 09:52 are? It's a combination. I would say that the number one reason for a family or parent Come to us is if they feel that trust has been broken with the with the school, it doesn't have to do it can have happened over the course of eight or nine years, you can have happened over the course of eight or nine months. But really the common link is that broken faith is that broken trust. And, and that's really I mean, I could see that in a, in a parent of a four year old, and a parent of a 14 year old, same exact situation. And the knowledge of the system, on the parent level, you know, can vary a lot in that. But that isn't really the driving force of what brings a parent to call us. What it really is, is they feel like trust is broken, and they have nowhere else to go. Dana Jonson 10:48 Yeah, that is a very hard thing to fix. That is really is a very difficult thing to fix. And one of the things that I find does fix that are outside evaluations. And that's, it's really hard to get right now. It is really hard. I 11:04 mean, for years, you know, I couldn't drive by my son's elementary school, I would take a different road, you know, because there were so much, you know, anxiety. So, yeah, in that, in that situation, it was really difficult. So I get it, you know, and it seems, you know, counterintuitive for me to say, collaboration is really, you know, sort of the name of the game. But, you know, for most of these families, you know, I mean, I look at a lot of families, and I say to them, you know, you are going to be in the special education system for what, 15 years, 16 years, you know, however old your child is, you know, versus, you know, 18 or 22, or when you see them coming out, you know, that is a long time, you know, you have to think about really long, really long time, you have to think about the long game, you know, and sometimes the long game is not served in the long run by being very combative. It's served by, you know, sort of getting the right advice and figuring out what your goal is, and whether it's realistic, and whether it is like within the scope of the law. You know, lots of times people want things that are not in the scope of the law, you know, I mean, that's yes, you know, that's definitely something. And it's a different issue, figuring that all out, it's not necessarily in your best interest to blow up your relationship with the school, when your kid is seven, you know, to get another decade, you definitely Dana Jonson 12:29 have to think long and hard before you make that decision. And that's a really good point. Because I say that to parents all the time is you have the right to privately educate your child any way you want. But if you want something from the public school district, if you want them to pay for any of it, if you want them involved in any way, shape or form, there's a process we there's a process. That's absolutely right, broken process, but it's the only one we've got, 12:55 I mean, I'm not gonna call it a crime, but it is, you know, a shame that, you know, this is a civil right, you know, special education is a civil right. But it is a right, that requires resources, in many cases, to enforce, you know, the enforcement of this is 100% on the parents, which is not fair, despite all of you know, the protections that are built in the law, that is just the way that it plays out sometimes. So, you're right, it's 100% of process, you know, my 16 year old, went to the DMV yesterday, and was not able to take his driver's test, because we did not have a certificate from the driver school saying they had completed Driver's Ed. And they were like, boom, it's done, we've, you know, we've closed this out, can't take the test today. And that's a little bit like the special education process, you know, it's, that process has to be followed, you know, step by step by step by step by step, you have to get in that line and get another line and get the other line and nobody at the DMV is going to tell you how to do it. Right. And you better have all your, like ducks in a row before you get there. It's a difficult process. And parents a lot of times struggle with that, you know, with with having to have all that together, it requires a lot, a lot. Dana Jonson 14:06 It takes a lot of energy, first of all, just in general. And then if you don't know exactly what you're looking for what's important, then you don't know what to document or Right. Right. And, you know, it's funny, because a lot of times people assume that hiring a lawyer will make things worse, like right off the bat. Right. And sometimes they do sometimes and sometimes in a way that it has to, you know, like you're not getting anywhere. So yes, it's going to be a little bit aggressive. But the other piece is we are personally invested. Yeah, we I look at it and I say they're not following the process. And so I go to the other attorney and I say your client is not doing what they're supposed to do. And if it's a decent other attorney, you know, they might not say to me, you're right, they screwed up. In fact, they definitely won't say that. But they will likely go back to their client and say You guys gotta clean this up. Yeah, You need to fix it. Yeah. And that's I mean, a lot, not all board attorney, some are some there are some out there that will fight just for the sake of fighting for, you know, where I have to tell my client, I can tell you right now they're going to fight us at every step of the way. But as a rule, you know, when attorneys get involved, sometimes things get resolved very quickly. Yeah. 15:21 Because there's a clarity and a structure that is applied to the process. And also, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter how, like, good you are, you know, as a parent advocate, or, or even if you're an attorney yourself, it is your child. So, that element of worry of care of emotion that can distort the way that you react, you know, you know, I mean, I had an attorney, kick, Dana Jonson 15:50 my PPTs. And my husband was in agreement. So like, that's a whole different issue. 15:55 No, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's really, so I mean, I Dana Jonson 15:58 can't be objective when it's your kid, no, you can't, I mean, just can, 16:02 you can't, and I do think though, you know, kind of getting back to your original thought, it's very difficult. If, you know, you don't know the process, it's very difficult if you don't know what to do, or what to ask, the first thing that I tell because I get a call every day from someone, not necessarily a self client, but someone who's kind of, you know, not unsure and doesn't know what's going on, and what should I do, and you know, and the first thing I always tell them to do, is to make a timeline of what has transpired with your child, it can be on a notebook, it can be in your iPhone notes, you can get super, you know, OCD and do an Excel spreadsheet, whatever. But you need to write down in a chronological order, with the years with the dates, what exactly happened, and when. And if you have backing, you know, documentation of that incident, if there was a communication, all of that should be in there, too. And once you can look at that was I mean, I don't think that anyone should go to talk to a professional attorney or advocate without doing that first, that's the first thing that they should do. Because you cannot have a coherent conversation with a professional without having done that. That's the first thing when clients hire, I've failed that both times. I mean, I've failed to do that. Just you know, in general, like when I, when I'm granted and billing parents what to do not following my back and doing it myself now. But yeah, no, but that's the first thing we do. And we work with our clients to create that timeline and attach any documents that are related to it, because it's astounding. Well, I Dana Jonson 17:38 mean, we've all heard them all, I don't know, if we have it there, these studies were four people observe the same car crash, and they see different of course, different thing, of course, and that's just a real thing, you know, so it's so critical, to have that documentation to keep yourself, you know, to keep it for yourself, so that you don't get out of control, too. Because sometimes we just get so as parents, it's our children. 18:01 Yeah. And there's also when you look at a list like that, and you and you look at, like, the experience that your child has had, you know, or not had, or whatever it is you're looking at, it's always important to remember that sometimes stuff is bad, but it isn't illegal. Sometimes things have happened, and they're bad. But yeah, like, no law has been broken, you know. So, you know, doing that allows you to kind of like really just get organized about you know about the process. And the other thing I always tell parents, you know, I used to do a little workshop of this is to create a binder of your documents, take your three inch, three ring binder, punch holes in it, get a set of subject dividers, and divide and put everything in the binder, label it with the year and have all the stuff in there. Because you know, if you go to a meeting, or you know, or have a Zoom meeting or whatever, and you don't have everything in front of you, you're definitely going to feel, you know, and this is regardless of whether you have an attorney or an advocate or not, you're definitely going to feel like out of place and out of control. Dana Jonson 19:04 If you were part of it, is they somebody at that table? Has your file in front of them? Absolutely. So somebody at that table can access anything in your file and pull it out for just 19:16 at any time. Yeah, anytime at any time. And there's nothing worse than sitting there. And thinking, you know, like, where's that document and not being able to find it? Or, you know, alternatively being in the meeting and saying, you know, oh, this thing that happened in you know, last fall, rather than saying, Charlie, on September 15 said this, you know, yeah, which statement is more powerful, you know, the first one or the second, you know, so all of these things, anything that you that a parent can do to make and this is like this is before you even start going on the internet and Googling things about special education and gray boxes and stuff like that. It's like you know, half of the game is Figuring out where you are, and getting organized. And then, at that point, you know, there are great resources online, there are great training resources that parents can use. But sometimes you can do all those things. And you're still not. You're still stuck. Yeah. Where an attorney or an advocate can be a lifesaver in the process? Dana Jonson 20:22 Well, yeah, I mean, knowing the law, unfortunately, isn't enough that that helps you know, enough to be dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Because what parents don't understand in the law is that there's a lot interpreted through cases through hearings. Yeah, case law. And, you know, if you aren't familiar with that, then your version of what's appropriate may not be the courts version of what's appropriate, fighting the wrong thing. And I've, I've had that happen, where parents are like, here, I've got the smoking gun, and they start explaining something to me that is so irrelevant, and has nothing to do with special ed. But then something they say, I'll be like, wait, wait, let's ask about that. You know, and it's something else that they didn't think was important. And I think, you know, going back to whether parents have the understanding, or the knowledge, I mean, self does a great job to providing those of those workshops, I mean, the virtual revolution, webinars, thank you. That's what I was looking for the virtual webinars, I redo everything virtually now. So it gets confusing, you know, on educating parents, and I do you think that those, though, I always tell parents, though, online, anything, support groups, workshops, so helpful, so supportive, take it all with a grain of salt. 21:41 It's not, as we say, in our disclaimer, a replacement for the advice of a qualified special education attorney, it just has a specific one on one about knotted, it is it is not a replacement for that, you know, you can ask all the questions that you want in the online forum, and make your question as specific as possible. But it is not the same thing. And that is challenging it that is very challenging and difficult for families. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, for my specific cohort of families, you know, my specific cohort of families is an under resourced population, this is a population that, you know, does not have the funds readily available to hire an advocate or an attorney. This is a population that by and large, doesn't have the, you know, the the time resources to be online googling things, and going to parent trainings and stuff like that. And this is very often a, you know, a population where English is not the primary language, where, aside from English not being the primary language, which makes it difficult to advocate the understanding of this system, that is the United States and the United States education system, that understanding is not there, you know, putting aside the special education, you know, piece of it, I had a call with a parent recently. And she had been going back and forth with her school district for quite some time. It was like four or five years, I don't remember exactly. And she finally out of a sense of frustration called the State Department of Education. And they said, you know, have you heard of this thing called Special Education? And she had not, no one at any point? Oh, my God, you know, she's a first generation immigrant. English is her second language. And no one at any point in the five years previous to that had thought to say to her, what about special education? You know, does your child need special education, and until she called the State Department of Education, and they told her, and then they instructed her, you know, good on them, of you know, exactly what she had to do to make a referral and to get into the system. But because this is a system that is, you know, unique to the United States, and it's very likely that if you emigrated from China or Namibia or you know, whatever. Exactly, with a vastly different legal system, with a vastly different structure, you wouldn't know education system, you wouldn't know that this is even a thing that you can ask for. Dana Jonson 24:10 And then add to that, that even different districts handle different things differently. You can't guarantee that you're gonna walk into a school and have it go one way, right. I think it's really important that people understand that our most vulnerable population really needs money to access their rights. That's absolutely right. And, you know, I get frustrated because it's also the only civil rights we negotiate. It is absolutely, you know, it's the only civil rights that we say, okay, you were supposed to do this, but I'll settle for that. Right. And we do it all the time. And so that's very frustrating to see but also, as you know, as an attorney, it's hard because we also, it is a civil right. I mean, it is hard Do you charge for your time? Yeah, I do, I do it, 25:03 all of you, every single person that practices this field of law, doing it, because they want to make millions, because obviously, you will be doing something else. If that were the case, you all do this, you know, I mean, very similar to the reason that that I got into this, most of you, attorneys and advocates, the ones that I know, have entered this field, because you've been touched in some way by this process, whether it be as a, you know, school administrator in your, you know, on your, you know, on your end, or as a special, I think you were a special ed teacher, as well. And, and, you know, about a variety of kids with disabilities got a variety of kids with disabilities. And exactly, so most of the attorneys, you know, and I try to, you know, say that to my clients when we have this conversation, or maybe I don't say it enough, is, you know, I'm always very frank about what my experience it has been, and why I do this, and why this is something that, you know, is very important to me, it's also equally as important to almost every attorney and advocate that I know, that feels that this is a civil right, that they're that it is a civil right, and that they've been touched by it in some way. Dana Jonson 26:15 Yeah, well, and that's why organizations like the special legal fund are so important, because as you said, there is a category of people who don't qualify for some of the free advocacy that's out there, but can't afford the advocacy they need. And it is a barrier, and it is something I wish we could make more accessible to parents, which is why I do this podcast is why I absolutely speak it's why we all answer the phone even when someone starts with I can't afford to pay you. Yeah. You know. So it's interesting to me, though, to see that you're kind of seeing the same things we are as far as you know, with your, the clientele coming to you. Right. So versus the clientele that comes to me first, we're seeing a lot of the same things. And I think that goes to disabilities don't discriminate? 27:05 No, they do not, they absolutely don't. And we've in the last couple of years, a lot of things have bubbled up to the surface, because of the pandemic, if I if I could think about, like, what the, the aggregate impact of that pandemic has been on my families, it's like a lot of kids were kind of getting by, they had a, you know, a modest amount of support, they were kind of eking it out on a daily basis. And then the pandemic came, and what was sufficient, in a quote unquote, normal environment became very insufficient, in that pandemic postponed very fast, and very fast. And then all kinds of other you know, comorbidities, as we say, started to pop up, you know, maybe they had been maybe the anxiety had been managed, maybe the depression, had, you know, not been debilitating, all of these kinds of things that come because you are not successful in an environment, right began to rear their ugly heads. So instead of seeing a child with one, you know, predominant issue, you're seeing a child where, you know, they have a predominant learning disability, but they also have significant case of school refusal, because of the anxiety and depression that has developed over the last 18 months. Yes, I get it. It's all brand new, you know, it's like an iceberg. You know, it's another part of the iceberg that's peeking above the surface or barrier. Dana Jonson 28:31 It's just another barrier. 28:33 Yeah, exactly. Dana Jonson 28:34 Yeah. And I think that it is, you know, you're right, that schools aren't, that's something I would like to see as a change is is more mandatory education to parents. On some level? Absolutely. A lot of my clients are attorneys even. Yeah, no. And actually, sometimes attorneys are the easier clients because they know they don't understand it. Like, right, so they're like, do they do this? Yeah, they're like, you know, yeah, you know, I'm not gonna do it over to you. So yeah, exactly. So sometimes they're actually the easier clients. It is hard when it's something you think you understand. And you think that, you know, and there are no special ed police. So no one's going to the school telling them what to do, unless you do something. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's really it. You're the gatekeepers. Parents are the gatekeepers, they are the only people who can hold schools accountable. What I don't understand is why school districts spend so much money fighting parents when they should be spending their money lobbying to be better funded. That's that's that's 29:37 educating parents at a very early level. Yeah. You know, like I spoke a little bit earlier about broken trust. And what happens, you know, with families is, you know, they go to you like the case of this family, you know, this mother that I recently spoke to, you know, so you go to your school and you say, I think my child's having difficulty and Maybe you do this at pickup, or maybe you do this, like, you know, outside of the classroom? Or maybe you happen to run into them when you're doing lunch duty, or whatever it is, you have that conversation that teachers like, oh, yeah, you know, let me look into it, I, you know, haven't noticed that, but you know, maybe I'll look into it or whatever. And then they forget, or they don't move forward with that request. And it's not because the teacher doesn't care. It's because in a lot of cases, the teachers managing 25 children, and the request was not made, the way that it has to be made in order to Dana Jonson 30:30 move forward. Right? It wasn't made in a way that triggered an obligation Exactly. 30:35 And then the parent does that three or four times gets no response. And then they're angry, because they feel like they've made this request three, four or five times, and that the school is not listening. Well, the school is not listening, because the request wasn't made in a way that triggers a response. One of the first things I say is like, like you need to stop having conversations in the hallway, everything you do, should be asked, don't text, anybody Don't you know, everything you should do, even if you have a conversation in the hallway, go back and send an email summarizing what you said, in the hallway to all the relevant people. But, you know, but that's not well understood. You know, none of that is well understood, because parents, broadly speaking, feel that schools are their friends, and they want them to be their friends, they want to look at the school as another person that cares about their child, when what the school is, is an institution, it can be, and you have to do things in a specific way, in order to get the response that you need. When the communication piece breaks down, because the parents not doesn't know how to ask, and the school isn't responding. That's where I see a lot of like, you know, I mean, there's there's a lot of headway that can be made there. You know, I Dana Jonson 31:48 agree. And that's clarifying something. Yeah. I mean, that's something that I will see. Is this all broke down over miscommunication? Absolutely. Now, and that's exactly 31:57 now one person feels they've been lied to. And the other part, you know it, right. Yeah. And then you then it's like, how do you get back from that? Dana Jonson 32:04 Right? Or, you know, like, if you look at perspectives from teachers and parents, you know, I've had parents that say to me, Well, you know, they never give me data unless I asked, and the teachers perspective is, but I give them the data every time they ask, they're 32:17 right, right, exactly. Dana Jonson 32:19 The problem? Is the problem. Yeah, the ask is what's missing? Right, the parents would like you to give them the data without the masking. So that has not been expressed clearly. And I do hear that a lot from parents when they call me they're like, but that should be clear. And yes, it should be. But it isn't. And it just doesn't trigger the responsibilities. And, yeah, I mean, that I would love to see 32:43 better and better parent training at an earlier level, better understanding of like, a parents, you know, a parent, a child's rights, better screening at a younger age, you know, most of the stuff that we see where a kid has been in the system, you know, for four or five years, and it's not making progress and reading or whatever, it's like, better screening at age like, you know, five, six, yes, would have made huge differences in the outcome, rather than what it devolves to. Dana Jonson 33:15 Well, and it's often more expensive to not provide services, because 100% of the time, oh, hard. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's more expensive to not do that. Because if you can get things done early. And the problem we're having schools didn't do a lot during the pandemic, very few schools even met their minimal obligations during the pandemic. And so we have a lot of that left over. 33:39 If you have a kid that can't read at the age of 12, and they have to be outplays, to a school that costs $100,000 a year, like you have not saved anything. And if you manage the school, to push that child off to graduation without producing a functional reader, guess what, you've pushed the cost of that on to society, because a person that can't read and is functionally like not able to read and use mathematics cannot have a productive life, or job. And then you're talking about like, crime, and you know, and the things and what keeps up his yacht. Exactly. And they Dana Jonson 34:17 need to be supported by somebody and exactly a healthy problem that needs to be paid for by somebody by somebody. That's all coming out of our taxes. And, you know, that's a lot. They were disservice to at a very young age. And, and, you know, we're, we're seeing a lot more come out since the pandemic and just going back to something you said earlier, which was about people seeing the reading and stuff like that. I've had a lot of parents call me who genuinely felt like Special Ed was just a money stuck, and then saw the issues in their children. Yeah. And we're like, I and they were at home looking at their play. Exactly. Yeah, because You know, I know for me, I got through high school dyslexia I got through high school without reading a book, and nobody knew. So, you know, because I had all these clues, if you'd put me at home, in my bedroom to work on a laptop, I would not have had any of those clues. And, you know, I would have fallen apart. So that's what happened to a lot of kids. And, you know, I've had parents, it's just an interesting because when the pandemic started, and people were saying, but our kids aren't getting educated, there was part of me that felt like, yep, that's how we feel. 35:29 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Our kids have never been educated. Right, exactly. And, you know, it's like, whatever gaps, you know, like, I'm like, the pandemic learning gap. It's like, whatever gaps existed for our kids, before the pandemic are worse now by a factor of like, five. And yes, there's a learning gap. But the learning gap is greater, and more severe, and much more difficult to overcome. For kids who are in special education, before the pandemic, and after? Dana Jonson 36:01 Well, there's some windows for skills. So some kids at a certain age won't learn the skill. Yeah, so we missed the window. For kids who say, Aren't diagnosed with autism until they're 14. Yeah, you know, you've missed 36:14 a significant window. Because, you know, the early years are when the brain is most plastic and most able to change to grow

Today Diane Wilcutts, a special education advocate from Connecticut, joins me to talk about Independent Educational Evaluations or IEEs. Evaluations are a critical piece of the special education process, as the evaluation is where it all begins. But what if you don't agree with your school evaluation? That is where IEEs come in. You can find Diane's website here: http://www.educationadvocacyllc.com/ Diane's email address: http://www.educationadvocacyllc.com/ You can always find me here: dana@specialed.fm FLASHBACK: Did you know Diane has joined us before? Yup! To discuss extended school year, or ESY. You can find that episode here https://five.libsyn.com/episodes/view/14855723 Transcript for this episode will be posted shortly after publishing. You can find them at https://specialed.fm

State Complaints are just one dispute resolution options available to Parents of children with special education needs. Our favorite advocate, Stacey Tié, joins me to break down the State Complaint process, why we use them, and how they can help. A little on Stacey: What Stacey loves most about advocacy work is giving parents the opportunity to breathe. Often parents know something’s not right but don’t know how to advocate for what their child needs. She listens, helps them organize their thoughts, documents their needs, and makes a plan. Stacey ensures that parents are viewed by all parties as valued members of their child’s special education team. And, during the key meetings, Stacey’s clients don’t have to worry about the process, preserving the record, or reading the room. She’s got that covered. You can find Stacey at Stacey@SpecialEd.Law You can find me at Dana@SpecialEd.fm FLASHBACK: In the episode "How independent are you?" I speak with Dr. Erik Mayville, clinical psychologist and Board Certified Behavior Analyst, to discuss the components of psycho-educational evaluation and what role independent evaluators play in the special education realm. You can find that episode here https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/how-independent-are-you TRANSCRIPTS for this episode can be found at SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.

Knowing your child’s IEP team isn’t enough.  To be the best advocate for your child, you need to know who makes the decisions, how, and when.   Your local Board of Education (BOE) consists of lay representatives who live in your community and are selected by you (in some areas there are appointed school boards, which are selected by either the mayor or county freeholders, who are selected by you). Your BOE members are your neighbors, parents & grandparents of local children, local business owners, and other ordinary citizens. Your BOE members are non-partisan and receive no pay or benefits for their public service.  They work for you, so you should know who they are and what they do. Stacey Tié and Julie Best are two parents running for their local BOE in Darien, CT.  Today they join me to discuss the role of BOEs, how they and their children have benefitted from their involvement, and why they have decided to actually run for seats on their BOE.  Tune in to hear how you can use your BOE to your advantage.   You can find Stacey & Julie at  https://julieandstaceyforboe.com/ You can find me at Dana@SpecialEd.fm FLASHBACK: We touch on the important issue of students who still require remote learning for the 2021-2022 school year and you can hear last week’s episode on this issue here  https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/why-we-need-learning-options TRANSCRIPTS for this episode can be found at SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.

Going back to school in person shouldn’t be a choice between a family member and an education.  But for some families, it is just that.  For children living with immunocompromised family members, going back in person really isn’t a choice at all.  It’s not even one of the options. This episode isn’t about special ed, it’s about education and why we need learning options for children who can’t attend school in person, disability or not.   Today I talk with Dr. Marney White, both a professor at Yale School of Public Health and parent to an elementary school child who can’t go back in person.  While her district provided an outstanding remote program during the COVID pandemic (yes, there are a few schools out there who rocked it), they are refusing any kind of instruction for her child next year even though his in-person attendance could kill his mother. Not a fair burden to put on a 5th grader.  Because the State won’t mandate a remote option, schools are refusing to offer it.   Special education attorney Andy Feinstein also joins us to discuss the legal components of this discrimination issue and how he is helping Dr. White get her child the free public education to which he is entitled.   We discuss why it is NOT a choice to go back, why schools are refusing to help, and what other families in this situation should do. You can find Dr. Marney White in the Facebook group CT Families in Need of Remote Learning:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/connecticutremote You can find Attorney Andy Feinstein at The Feinstein Education Law Group:  https://www.attorneyfeinstein.com/ You can find me at Dana@specialed.fm Thanks for tuning in! Transcripts for this episode will be available on SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.

Justyna & Meghan from The Hangout Spot join me today to discuss how kids are adjusting to “back to normal” back to school! While I wouldn’t necessarily call it “normal” we are going back and most kids haven’t had an opportunity to flex their social muscles in a while.  They will need time and patience while they acclimate. Justyna & Meghan talk about skills students will need and what you you and your kids can starts working on now.   Justyna & Meghan were on a year ago, right after they opened The Hangout Spot to talk about how they are using ABA methods to help kids learn how to "hangout":  https://specialed.law/wanna-hangout-i-know-just-the-spot/ In 2020 Justyna & Meghan opened The Hangout Spot, a behavior analytic social skills development center where all children have a right to meaningful relationships with others. They strive to eliminate barriers to friendship and empower children to be socially successful across the lifespan using the principles of Applied Behavior Analysis. Everything they do is rooted in research, empirically validated, and proven to work. They conceptualize critical, previously considered “tricky to teach” skills through a scientific framework. In doing so, they achieve socially-significant change for kids by providing the support they need to develop real connections with other people beyond the walls of The Hangout Spot.   You can find Justyna & Meghan and learn more about The Hangout Spot here:  https://www.thehangoutspotllc.com/ TRANSCRIPT for this episode can be found at specialed.fm shortly after the episode publishes.

My office mates join me to sum up IEP season, discuss the trends we saw, and postulate on what we should expect for '21-22.  You can reach us all at SpecialEd.Law A transcript of this episode can be found here shortly after the episode is published:  https://specialed.law/end-of-year-wrap-up/

Summer's coming!  So today, special education parent and advocate, Lisa Lightner, founder of A Day in Our Shoes, joins me to discuss Extended School Year services.  What are they?  Who gets them? And do you need them?   Check out ADayInOurShoes.com A transcript of this episode can be found here shortly after the episode is published:  https://specialed.law/summer-isnt-just-a-courtesy/ TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) SUMMARY KEYWORDS parents, child, ies, extended school year, iep, school, school district, hear, social skills, students, program, summer, services, lisa, special ed, offering, camp, regression, week, disabilities SPEAKERS Dana Jonson Dana Jonson  00:02 Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So please subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes. And I want to know what you want to know. So like, follow and drop me a note on my need to know with Dana Jonson Facebook page. Okay, let's get started. Hello, and thank you for joining me today. I'm very excited to talk about the extended school year today. We are in mid June, which is the end of the school year. And so hopefully if your child requires Yes, why you've already established that in your IEP. But what we're going to talk about more is why do we have it? What is this? Why? Why do we have it? Why do we want it? And do we really want to use it. And I have with me Lisa lightner, who is a parent, and advocate and the founder of a day in our shoes, which is an amazing resource for parents a website with an amazing resource. And we'll get into all of that in a minute. But I wanted to first touch on the fact that if you have not heard yet, I will repeat myself I am going through a transition or not I am not my podcast is need to know with Dana Jonson is going through a transition. And next week will be the final episode as need to know with Dana Jonson. And then I will relaunch again in August as special ed on special ed, it will be special ed experts talking about special ed topics. So basically the exact same content. I'm just changing the name and the logo, because what I learned is that when you search for a special education podcast, need to know doesn't necessarily pop up on your screen. So I have a wonderful and solid loyal audience. And I love you all. And I want to reach more people. So we're just going to change do some cosmetic changes. But I'll be back in August with all the same great content. So I do hope to see you there. Now back to Yes, why? Hello, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today. Yay. I want to talk to you because you have a lot of experience with special ed and also with helping parents and with going through the process yourself. So I was hoping you could give me a little background and maybe introduce yourself and how you and a day in our shoes came to be because that website is so amazingly full of information for parents, and probably teachers and administrators as well. I'm going to guess a few of those peruse your site. 03:03 Yes, I know that I do get a lot of school staff traffic, especially for my lists of IEP goals and the various disciplines or areas of need. So yeah, so it's good for both parents and school staff. Although my main goal from the get go and you know, as it continues to be today, as always been to help parents understand the IEP process. Actually, in March, the site just turned 10 years old, which is a little crazy. I know, I can't believe it. Prior to that I actually did have a different I had a separate site and I was working as a teacher, I used to teach a vocational program. And I had a sight completely unrelated to anything disabilities. But I did have a baby with disabilities, his preschool sent home a flyer to take training to become a special ed advocate. His school did. Yeah, he went to an arc preschool. Dana Jonson  03:55 Okay, that makes more sense. I'm envisioning the public school sending you out a flyer. I 04:02 know you went to an ark preschool. So they sent home a flyer to do this special ed advocacy training. And I did it merely because he was a toddler. And I said, you know, this seems like a lot. And I already understood that like, Whoa, this is pretty overwhelming because people were always coming to my house and explaining things to me and paperwork was just, you know, phenomenal. Dana Jonson  04:25 It Anyway, during the lab work and special ed. 04:28 But during the last recession, I lost my job during the 2008 recession. I lost my job, I was already in the training. So suddenly, I had a lot more time on my hands and became you know, was still going through the training, started volunteering, merge that into working part time for the arc as an advocate and then went on, you know, went off on my own started the website. And it's funny because I started the website actually with another friend who is also an advocate and we were like, oh, we're gonna like this website's gonna be about everything special. needs and like we live near where we live in Philadelphia. And we're like, we're going to list camps. And we're going to list programs and support meetings. And I mean, for Philadelphia alone, that amount of information is completely overwhelming. And what I, what I had learned early on is that parents really weren't just coming to the site for the IEP information. And, you know, some of my earliest posts are on things like what to do when your child's suspended manifestation hearings, and just because no one explains that to them and in language that they can understand and kind of walks you through the process. So you know, really, it was the parents who told me, this is what we need to hear, this is what we want to hear. So it's just grown since there. Dana Jonson  05:44 I love it. Because I feel like as you said, it breaks things down in a way that is consumable. You know, that makes sense. And I even find, for me, when I go to look something up, if I go to another attorneys page, sometimes about something in the law, and even I get bored, you know, like, this is so dry. So it's great to have that translation, you know, in what I call real, you know, I 06:07 do read Ida off and in the procedural safeguards, and the Federal Register that goes with it. And you know, it's those paragraphs, you have to go through them three and four times and the sentence at a time and well, then there's case law that defines it afterwards. And it's not really clear cut or black and white as we'd like it to be Dana Jonson  06:25 let's talk about is why does your child heaviest? Why did you have to have this battle at some point? 06:29 Well, first of all, let's let's just clarify, because I do this to ies y means extended school year. Dana Jonson  06:35 Yes. Thank you for slowing me down. I talked so fast. And sometimes I completely forget that. I'm just talking in my own language. But you're right, we're talking about extended school year services, not summer school, not camp, it's very specific service, that children who qualify are entitled to from their school district. And it's an extended school year. That's exactly what it sounds like. It means that your school year will continue beyond when the typical school year ends. So how do we get there? Lisa, why do we want it? What is it? 07:08 Right? Well, so first of all, you said, Did you ever do that battle? And I'd have to say No, I've never had to fight that battle with my child. That's great. Pennsylvania actually does have one case, he's in what is known as the Armstrong group. And it was based on a case you know, Armstrong versus someone I don't remember who it was. But the Armstrong group is kids whose needs are, you know, they're pretty high needs pretty severe autism, intellectual disability, situations like that. So it's kind of like says kids in the Armstrong group are always going to qualify for Yes. Why they're always going to need it. So he's in he's in that group. So it's not thankfully, that's one battle, I don't have to fight every year. Dana Jonson  07:54 Well, that is a good point. And and to start right off the bat, let's talk about why a student might need Yes, why. And I think that there is a misconception, there are several misconceptions about it. One is that it is only for regression. So right, only if you're going to regress, now, all students regress, right? So let, let's just start there, all of them regress over the summer, it's called the summer slide. That's why we have those silly packets, we have to force them to fill out and do over the summer. And you know, in the first month of school is really teachers trying to get kids back into the swing of things and caught back up and figuring out where their slides were. And for children with disabilities, if they are going to regress even more than that typical amount, then that's when we're looking at extended school year services. But what you're saying about this arm strong group in Pennsylvania, which is specific to your state, but we also argue here in Connecticut, which is and everywhere else is that if the nature of the disability is so severe, that the student requires those additional weeks or months to meet their goals and objectives, because that's what they require. They're continuing to work on those pieces, then they might also qualify for extended school year. 09:09 Yeah. And they're actually you know, as you know, there are other criteria, as far as is the child on the verge of an emerging skill, how long it takes them to recoup lost skills, and things like that. So I think that that is probably the biggest myth out there that, you know, he he doesn't regret he's not at fear, or he's not at one of the standard line that I hear from parents is that he's not at risk for regressing, so he doesn't qualify. Dana Jonson  09:34 Well, I think that's how do you define regression? Because as you said, if you're on the verge of an emerging skill, and if you wait till September to continue it, and you will lose that ground, that's called regression. I mean, I think that's how I look at it anyway, you know, so I think we have to look at it from a lot of different places, and sometimes I hear well, they're fine on Christmas break. So we don't have regression, 09:57 right? And that's where I tell parents that you know, It's you have to stay engaged in the process, you know, year round. And because a lot of kids, I mean, a lot of kids do regress, even over Christmas break, but the parent doesn't necessarily document that or it's not the things aren't as visible. And I have to remind parents all the time that, you know, teachers in schools only see what happens at school. So if you're seeing additional things at home, you need to start documenting that. Right. Dana Jonson  10:24 And that's been a neat change over COVID. Right, is that I think parents voices are getting a little louder. Yeah, because they're actually seeing this progression or understanding what regression is. And, and I think that's a good point, because maybe, as you said, an emerging skill. And I'm saying, I see that as regression. But if the parent doesn't know that emerging skill is happening in school, then the parent isn't going to know to document the regression either. Right? So a lot of that comes back to communication and understanding what's in the IEP and what your child is working on. 10:54 Yes. And I believe, and I, sometimes I get confused in my head, I'm like, is this Pennsylvania specific? Or is this Ida, but I believe it's in Ida that no single factors should decide whether or not the child gets Yes, why. So even if that alone, if you're saying, well, the child doesn't regress enough to get Yes. Why? Well, Ida says, it shouldn't be any one single factor, Dana Jonson  11:16 right? There should take in a whole bunch of components. And as we know, every child is different. And we individualize. So how do you find ies wise typically provided when you're advocating for students? And you're looking for extended school year programs? How do you find that that is typically provided to families? 11:35 Yeah, so one of the other tenets of ies why is that it's supposed to be individualized? No. Dana Jonson  11:45 I heard a rumor. 11:48 But that is honestly I would say, and I get it, I get that only certain teachers agree with their contract to work over the summer, certain therapists, things like that, and busing and, you know, bus, what's the word? I'm looking for contracts and therapist contracts, you know, because a lot of these things, therapies and you know, like bcbas, and transportation, mostly, you know, a lot of schools don't have their own they contract out. So I get that, from an administrative standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to just say, Hey, we're doing four weeks in July, Monday through Thursday, nine to one See you there. But around here anyway, that's getting to be just the norm. You know, hey, we'll see in July, Monday through Thursday, nine to one, Dana Jonson  12:32 right and less if it depending on when the Fourth of July falls? Yes. Right. Because that could add or eliminate a whole week, 12:39 right? And then we have a whole other situation where in the city, if the buildings aren't air conditioned schools get canceled. And a lot of you know, because I live in an old area. I live near Philadelphia, and a lot of these buildings aren't air conditioned. So then that throws in a whole other. Dana Jonson  12:55 No, yeah. And Connecticut schools can't go past the end of June because no schools are mandated to be air conditioned. And it's hot here. You know, we had a heatwave the other week, I was surprised, no schools closed. Because you need air conditioning in Connecticut in the summer. 13:10 Right. And they did actually, that was just You're right. That was just like last week, and Philadelphia schools did dismiss early they dismissed at lunchtime each day, because it just got too hot. So yes, I would say the biggest trend and but it's also the biggest concern is just that that whole individuality piece, as far as eBay just gets tossed out the window. And I think parents need to engage more and investigate. Like, I think they spend so much time focusing on whether or not their child qualifies. And oh, I just want them to get as why that they're not digging deep and saying, Okay, I gotta Yes, why now what's going to happen? Because it's to be based on your child's IEP. And if they're going to do you know, two hours of La each day and two hours of math and then send your kid home, and your child doesn't necessarily have needs in those areas, then you know why, you know, nobody wants to go to school in the summer, right? As Americans, we're just we're programmed to not think about school to not go to school in the summer, and nobody wants to do it. So if you're going to get your child in ies why let's make it meaningful, right? Let's, you know, if they're going to go and you're going to do that, let's make it meaningful. Dana Jonson  14:15 I hear that as well, that, you know, we want as why we want as why, and then, you know, maybe I get EMI for my client. And later they say, Well, that wasn't really what they needed. I have to remind clients that that you are the parent, and they're all these experts around you. And you know, I'm using air quotes for experts that you can't see. But there are all these experts around you telling you what it should be. And at the end of the day, as you said, if if it's focused on math and reading and your child's issues, their social skills, and schools can't mandate typical students to attend summer programs or ies. Why then is that program really benefiting your child? You have to figure that out. There's no one else around is going to do it for you. 14:55 The flip side of that is that parents who are fairly certain that their child is going to get the Guess why they some of them jump right to the so I found the summer camp. mean, I found the social skills summer camp, and I'm going to make the school pay for it. Meanwhile, social skills isn't even an identified area of need in the IEP. So right, you know, again, it has to be individualized. But it also has to be defined as an area of need in the IEP. And as you said, they cannot force non IEP students to attend Yes, why to enable that LRE. Dana Jonson  15:26 That's a very good point, because I have had parents call me and say, You know, I think my child really needs the social skills piece. But there is no social skills, as you said, in the IEP, that's a red flag, right? If, if you're looking for a service that is not in your child's IEP, it should be, then we need to revisit that whole component. Because, you know, some children, if they go the whole summer, and they don't have friends, their parents can do their level best to get those interactions, but they're not getting that peer interaction, like they get at school. And that's a really long time to go without that. 16:02 Right. It is, and especially this year, you know, because many had at least a year gap, if not more, you know, some stayed home through May or June and are not going back until the fall. So they haven't been there since last March. You know, and I know a lot of schools have been in the fall and it gradually more and more throughout the school year. But yeah, I mean, it's that is a long time. Dana Jonson  16:22 Did you find where you are or where you are now? Do you find that schools are opening up ies wise and or summer school and or recruitment programs? Not recruitment Brit re yeah recoup recoup not recruit programs to help students who had that that huge gap because I find there are some some schools around where I am that are doing that that are being more proactive and saying like last year, they said anyone who wanted to go to ESRI could 16:51 Yeah. So Laura. And I actually know Laura, who works for those of you missed it on Laura did was gracious enough to do a facebook live with me. And we talked about comp services due to COVID and getting the services. Because what another issue you know, of course, keep in mind, nobody ever comes to me when things are going well, they only come to me, right? things aren't going well, right? I have to constantly remind myself of that. But a lot of parents are inquiring about comp services like hey, my child missed a year of this and you know, you're have that. And then it's Oh, well, he can go to ies Why then he can go to ies Why? And again, it's about that digging deeper and saying well, but this is what he missed. So what is ies? Why, and and what's going to happen there? And is that sufficient? Because yes, I do see a lot of schools being more generous with offering EFI to students. But again, just bring them in for a couple of hours to do some reading and some math. Dana Jonson  17:47 Kids don't progress through osmosis. Right? Right, just appearing in the school, 17:53 they're not getting that pull out, or they're not getting their therapy, or whatever it is, because I hear all kinds of crazy stuff like, well, we don't do OT and E s y. And like, I don't you know, Dana Jonson  18:02 any any statement that starts with we don't, is usually incorrect. 18:08 The only thing the only one that I will say applies this time is that for as why the school cannot guarantee LRE. But other than that everything apply. Dana Jonson  18:18 And that's fair, because you can't compel typically developing students to go to a summer program. Right? I do hear that argument, though, for students who really require interaction with typically developing students that truly is what helps their progress and their success in the classroom or the environment that they're in whatever that may be. And so, you know, I often have situations where parents say, Well, why can't they do their ies? Why at a camp? Why can't they do that? And my responses they can, we can absolutely do that, if that's what's necessary. And how do we set that up to make that that argument that that is what your child requires. But that goes back to what you're saying about the individualization. And I think a lot of parents are trained to understand that are taught that this nine to one July program is actually what he is why it is, right. Yeah, you know, that they actually believe that's what it is. So because that's what it's called. And so, you know, when we're looking at extended school year, you know, programs and I hear schools say, well, it's really just about regressions, so we don't have to add anything new. So we're okay here. How do you go about working with parents to come up with creative ways to identify and and obtain those different kinds of extended school years? 19:43 Okay, so first of all, it depends. I have to tell you, it honestly depends on what time of year they come to me because the parents who are coming to me now and it is happening now, sometimes time is just not on your side, right? It just isn't, and so to Come to me, you know, Memorial Day or June 15, and say, Oh, well, I'm not happy with this ESP program from a time factor, there's usually not a lot I can do, because what I have always always preached is, you know, look at the present levels, present levels is what drives the IEP. And if this need is not in present levels, it's, then there's not going to be a goal for it. And if there's no goal for it, there's not going to be any supports and services for it. Right. And so that's, that's usually at the core of the issue is that there's an identified need. So then, okay, well, let's get it identified. Well, that takes time. And that's the kind of thing you know, like, he's, like you said, going back to their social skills example, if mom and dad are seeing that the child's struggles with social skills, but he's able to get through school day, and it's not an identified need on an IEP, you know, again, you can't go to the school and say, Well, this is the social skills camp is what he needs for EAS, why? What his child needs is some evaluations to show that he lacks social skills. And that's going to take time, and on June 15, you know, I can't necessarily help you there. So from the school's point of view, what I do always do say to parents, as you know, like, look at these camps, most of them are nonprofits, look for scholarships, look for, you know, go to your Lions Club, though, to your co Ana's club, your rotary and see if they do sponsorships for, you know, children in the community with disabilities. And if they would sponsor this camp for you, if you cannot afford it. And also, you know, if you, I get it, we're guaranteed faith, and that first word is free. But just because our kids are guaranteed fate doesn't mean that if you have a disabled child that you're never ever going to have to pay for anything for them ever again. So you know, some good point, yeah, and some parents are in a position to pay for these things. And that is, you know, what I call the path of least resistance. If I can't help you demonstrate this week, you know, that your child needs social skills, then I just don't really think that's going to be an option for you. Like, we can go through the motions and we can get things started. But the school is under no obligation in most cases to evaluate for this camp starts and things like that. Dana Jonson  22:09 I've seen that there was like a, as a plan on school districts part is that they make it a little difficult. So for parents who can pay for ies why they just do they just find something and pay for it. And again, the path of least resistance. And I do get that as well. But then I also find that what ends up happening is the people who can't afford to place are stuck and fighting their district. And the district is playing the same game with them. So they're having to push back and they can't afford to push back or to unilaterally place. And that's where we run into trouble. A lot of times, too, when I get that call, I also have to remind parents that hiring me to get the school district to say yes to Yes. Why may cost you more than the EMI program. 22:55 Right. A great example is several years ago, I had a family and they wanted this 15 $100 s y program, and we ended up going to mediation. And yes, the girl got it, the female student got the program in mediation that that we wanted. But I mean, I'm sitting there in mediation, looking at this table of like, seven or eight school staff. And it was this time of year. I mean, it was summer had already started school is out. And I thought you know, here, we have a superintendent and me, you know, they're paying me and all these people and to challenge us on a 15 $100 program. So and yes, I certainly acknowledge that, you know, of course, I go off on tangents and talk about this stuff all day. There certainly is a gap in a you know, in public education, certainly between the haves and the have nots. And having a parent pay for a program that they can afford, can exacerbate that gap. And I'm not I don't want to come across as that I'm comfortable with that, like, Oh, well, too bad for you. If you can't afford it, you know, again, that's how I understand Yeah, you can look into, you know, you can try to look into scholarships and things like that. But for the parent who can afford it, like I said, you know, you and I will probably still get one or two more calls this week, from parents. Yeah, from parents who are looking for EMI. And you know, in some cases, when you come to us at this time of year that if you want that program, they're like, well, it starts June 21. Like I These are your options, you sign up and pay for yourself or you know, Dana Jonson  24:22 well until that point, and I want to be really clear that neither Lisa nor I are giving any legal advice here. Lisa is not an attorney, but I am and I'm not giving legal advice and I don't know your your students situation. But to that point, if a parent were to do that, and go pay for their program themselves, and I always want to make this clear to any parent anytime. If you expect any money back from a district that you spend, you have to go through a very important legal process and document and note it properly. And the most, the most important part is you have to give 10 days notice so Before your child leaves the public school, not before they start the new program, before they leave the public school 10 days beforehand, at least, you must have given notice in writing that the school district did not offer an appropriate program, that you're in disagreement with their program, that you believe this is an appropriate program. And that you will be placing your child there, and that you expect to get reimbursement later that you're preserving your rights to reimbursement. That's very important. I also usually mentioned to parents, if you're spending money, you want to get back, talk to a lawyer, it's that simple. talk to a lawyer is the best way to make sure you've covered your ground. But so for those of you who are listening to us right now and thinking, Oh, I didn't get ies why yet I got to figure that out. Make sure that you talk to somebody, so you're doing it the right way. But for people who already have it in their IEP, and the issue is a dispute of where it is, you know, yes, there are a lot of options. So that kind of brings me to another question that Lisa, which is through your child does qualify and you do get it? Do you have to go? And I get that a lot from parents too, who say I don't want to say no to anything. I don't I don't want to say no, because you don't you don't want the IP to be weakened because you're going to visit grandma for the week. You don't want to not have it in there. So how do you advise parents who asked that question? Do I have to go to ies wire does my child have to 26:21 go? I know it's parents spend so much time and it is such a fight some time to get services that they're so they just don't want to decline? Anything that's offered to them. And I get it. I Dana Jonson  26:31 never did either. I mean, I bore kids with IPS. So I totally understand. 26:37 I mean, first of course, ask the special ed director or ask whoever's running the EFI program, you want to know what's going to happen there. Because as I said earlier, you want to make it meaningful, right? If you are going to send your child to school during the summer, which is going to affect you know, the entire household, right? You want to see what's going on? And is it appropriate for your child? Is it going to be meaningful? It's not talked about a lot, but school districts are not actually permitted. And it's not legal advice. But school districts are not permitted to retaliate against parents for refusing services. So in a perfect world, no, that shouldn't be held against you, as we all know what what the statute says and what happens every day is not necessarily the same thing. But no, they're not supposed to retaliate against you are not permitted to retaliate against you for refusing a service. That being said, I haven't This isn't an area where I would necessarily expect to see a lot of retaliation because they the school district has planned their ESP program. They've hired X number of teachers and X number of Paras and they do kind of have a cap on, you know, yep, this is how many kids we're going to offer. Yes. Why to? So being able to cut those numbers back, I wouldn't necessarily expect retaliation in this area, because it is going to save the district money, right? If five parents say no, that might be another pair that they don't have to hire for ESXi. So I wouldn't necessarily be afraid of that. I would you know, Dana Jonson  28:04 I also find that as wide disputes, and as soon as I say this, it's going to change. I'm going to jinx myself. But I tend to find that because yes, why programs, as you said you're fighting over a 15 $100 program, oftentimes as Why is not as cost prohibitive as a program during the school year. So I find that those disputes are often easier to resolve, because they're short term, they're short lived, and they're not tremendously expensive. So I see the bigger fights for ies wise, when you have a child who really requires a 12 month program, that's usually where we have like the more major disputes, and we don't have that in place. Or for students who require two months of extended school year, not just one, 28:47 right, that I that you're right, and that, you know, if they're offering where I see the disputes is the parents who are trying to buck the school with the you know, this, this nine to one monday through thursday camp program isn't appropriate for what my child needs. So and in fact, that 15 $100 program was just that we wanted something at the local university, which was completely appropriate for what this girl needed. And the camp program that the school was offering was not appropriate. So like he said, that's where I see the issues is when parents don't want to do the camp program, and they do want the summer camp or the something else, which in many cases may be really appropriate. You know, if social skills is your biggest is your child's biggest need, you know, but again, it's going back to getting that documented, and is that a you know documented area of need and all that Dana Jonson  29:34 I often recommend the parents if they are sending their child somewhere else that they explained to the school district how that will address some of the issues for us Why? Because a lot of times going to that summer camp. It's not a special ed camp. It's not providing those educational components, but it will address the special education needs of the child and that's what we're looking for. right we're looking for to address the special education needs of the child. And I think that oftentimes that puts the district at rest to Okay, well, you're doing your thing, but we know that at least that they're getting some services. So when we come back to the table in September, we're still on the same page. You know, school isn't going to say, I can't teach your kid because you didn't send them to us why, right? That's not gonna happen, right? Yeah, I 30:21 was for EFI, or for any really, you know, I guess, an alternative si program is really an out of District placement, right? Because you're not doing with the district, in district for any out of District placement, I say, go there, ask them or talk to them read the website, what are they doing at that placement that your child needs, that they are possibly, they're just never going to get that in what the district is offering, right. Dana Jonson  30:47 And a lot of times, it's the typically developing peers, the role models, the social skills, and I've had school districts send a para to the local camp, if a student was maybe going to the local camp, and the parent was paying for the camp, but maybe the school sent the para, that's not typical. So don't get excited about that. But I have seen it happen that way. I've also seen ies y in the form of like some one on one tutoring. 31:12 Yep. Oh, yeah, I've seen a lot of you know, some kids don't need nine to one every day. But they do need to keep up on some things. So once or twice a week might be you know, and now every school district in the country just about is set up to do things virtually. So if your child's needs are strictly academic, you know, maybe they don't need to leave the house, maybe they do only need an hour, a day or an hour a week of some online tutoring, or some you know, instruction or something like that, working with his teacher. Yeah, I mean, just, you know, like you're talking about an out of District, but they sent the para, you know, be creative and think about everything, you know, think about what you can offer them and because it is you know about being collaborative, Dana Jonson  31:51 and I find that the more options a parent comes to the table with and also though, to your point, understand what your school is offering going in and saying I know you're Yes. Why is canned? And doesn't do anything isn't an argument. Right? It's definitely not a legal argument. But it's also not an argument and you don't have a really good ground to stand on. You know, if you're and I think other parents are great resource, and we need them, and they help you. But you have to get the information yourself. 32:21 Yeah, I would ask to see like curriculum or lesson plans or something, because what I've found is a lot of parents will call an IEP meeting to talk about this. And then they say, Well, my child needs this and they go, okay, we do that. And they go, Well, my child needs this. Oh, yeah, we do that they do everything. Right. They do everything in these four hours, right. So it's, it's getting some not just verbal reassurance, but something else that like, you want to know what they're doing each day, I've found that a lot of them are just a lot of fun time to you know, a lot of outdoor games and, and I get it, it's summer, you want to keep things light, but you know, I'm not going to send my kids every day to go play in the playground for four hours, either, you know, because that's not helping him or anyone else. So Dana Jonson  33:05 right. So yeah, so I think, you know, understanding very thoroughly what the school district is actually offering and what that looks like, it's hard because parents can't observe the ESA, during the school year, because it's not there. So that's a bit challenging. So you do have to rely on other parents and their experiences. But yeah, going to your team and asking them to pull out specifically, what are we working on, I hear a lot of well, it's only to prevent regressions. So it's going to be a lot less, it's going to be minimal. It's going to be all these things. I actually this year had a an PPT or in Connecticut, we call them ppts. But an IEP meeting, where they said the formula we use is and I thought, okay, thank you for sharing, we're going to revisit that. You know, there's no one formula for ESP for every child on the planet. And that is really the key part. And I do believe that a lot of the ESP programs that schools have can address a lot of students needs, but not all of them, right? Not every child and not every need. So we do really need to take those those ideas and those thoughts and think outside the box. I also caution parents that a lot of times I find schools, at least I have found and again, I don't come in unless there's a problem. And there's another attorney at the table. So usually we're there to try and fix the problem. That's the goal. But I find that we can be very creative, and in a way that school districts can't always be at the IP table. So to also be a little flexible with the IEP team. Yeah. Could we could we maybe come to a better agreement outside of this meeting? Because I think we can resolve the issues. You know, if there's an issue and an easy way to resolve it, why wouldn't the school want to 34:51 Right, right. I think also, you know, obviously the internet and social media has been a complete game changer for IEP parents, right like One of my mentors has a disabled son who's my age. And so she tells me about in the 70s standing by her mailbox, like literally waiting for this newsletter to get to her home, you know, because that's was the 70s. Right? So it's been a complete game changer, the Dana Jonson  35:13 fact that she could find a newsletter in the 70s and 80s. I'm really impressed with. 35:19 But I think that it's it's been a mixed blessing because I think parents see other parents getting things doing things, and then they think, Oh, my gosh, I have to be doing that. And not every child with an IEP gets ies Why? And not every child with an IEP needs is why and you kind of have to go with your gut, I, you know, go with your gut instinct, and then work on defining that gut instinct, you know, with your IEP team, but it's okay, if your child doesn't need ies Why? Just because you see all these other parents doing it. And I feel like it has become kind of like the latest, like buzz word are out there like, Yeah, do you have Yes. Why do you have vs? Why? What do you know? And it's okay to not go to ies why it's okay. You know, again, it's okay to tell the school No, but it's also okay, if Dana Jonson  36:04 you can also get your accommodations for your summer packet, you know, so, so your child

What's the deal with Mediation?  Mediation is a wonderful tool for resolving disputes with your school district.  It is voluntary, free, and offered by your State, so today we are going to check it out.  We will discuss the entire process, all the players, and how you can prepare.   NEWS: I also have exciting news about the re-brand of Need to Know with Dana Jonson.  Listen to the episode to hear the details, but, in a nutshell, I will publish 3 episodes in the month of June, then I will take July off, and will return in August with a new, improved, and re-branded podcast!  The new name will be Special Ed on Special Ed; Enlightenment from special ed experts on special ed topics.  It will be the same RSS feed, so you don’t have to do a thing.  Just be patient, and in August, Special Ed on Special Ed will pop into your cue.   In this episode, I also mention Christine Blackburn and her podcast Story Worthy, which I highly recommend you check out! A TRANSCRIPT of this episode can be found here: https://specialed.law/whats-the-deal-with-mediation/

Today we head to SuperD!Ville where children who learn differently (and their peers) find out about how their brains work and social emotional learning.  We talk with Peggy Stern, Founder and CEO, and Diana Correa-Cintron, COO, about how SuperD!Ville came to be and how it is helping children everywhere! https://superdville.com SuperD!Ville is a forward thinking and unique multimedia resource that combines videos with real kids and lessons plans for a broad range of social and emotional issues.   Created by Academy Award winner Peggy Stern, SuperD!Ville empowers the 1 in 5 children who learn differently.   Research shows that it helps all students: Develop SEL skills (self-esteem, resilience, empathy, etc.) Identify their strengths and challenges as learners Acquire useful self-advocacy tools for school and beyond In addition, all of the kids who act in the videos have learning differences like dyslexia and ADHD! Peggy Stern, Founder and CEO Peggy Stern is an Academy Award-winning film Producer/Director with more than 30 years experience. Her dyslexia led her to filmmaking and animation at a young age, and in March 2006 Stern won the Oscar for Best Animated Short. Stern has produced for PBS, HBO, Teachers College at Columbia University, The National PTA, and National YWCA among others. She received her BA from Harvard University and her senior thesis film STEPHANIE, was turned into a PBS documentary special and broadcasted nationally. SuperDville is a family affair, as her dyslexic daughter Emma has been a key advisor! Diana Correa-Cintron, Chief Operating Officer Diana is an attorney by training, educator and Latino rights activist. She has worked as a public interest lawyer, policy analyst, development officer and consultant for a range of non-profit and educational institutions such as FIU, Columbia University School of Law, Hispanics in Philanthropy, the Bronx Children’s Museum and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and was also awarded a Fulbright Fellowship. As the COO for SuperDville, Diana works in partnership with Peggy Stern on strategic planning, outreach and cultural competency. She is the proud mother of two sons with dyslexia. You can reach both Peggy and Diana through the SuperD!ville website: https://superdville.com/contact/ Peggy and Diana also discussed SuperD!friends in this episode, which can be found here: https://superdvillefriends.as.me/schedule.php Full TRANSCRIPT of this episode can be found at https://specialed.law/were-going-to-SuperDville

Happy IEP season!  Today, special education attorney Laura Henneghan joins Lisa Lightner and A Day in Our Shoes to discuss Compensetory Education for services missed due to the global pandemic.  She covers what comp ed is, who qualifies, and how to ask for it.  You'll gain tools with which to advocate for your child in your spring IEP meetings. Check out ADayInOurShoes.com You can reach Laura at Laura@SpecialEd.Law A transcript of this episode can be found here shortly after the episode is published: https://specialed.law/A-Day-in-Our-Shoes-on-COVID-and-Comp-Ed/

Is your child with special education needs college bound?  What do they need to get there? And where is there?   Today, Special Education Attorney Laura Heneghan shares her journey helping her children navigate transition skills for college and what questions to ask.     You can find both Laura and me at   https://SpecialEd.Law   and you can reach Laura directly at Laura @SpecialEd.Law   The TRANSCRIPT for this episode can be found in the show notes at https://SpecialEd.Law/were-college-bound   TRANSCRIPTS (not proofread)   SUMMARY KEYWORDS college, child, brogan, student, learning, school, high school, kids, accommodations, disabilities, people, classes, absolutely, professors, parents, skills, learning disabilities, capable, dyslexia, campus SPEAKERS Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney, Dana Jonson   Dana Jonson  00:02 Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. And a special education attorney in private practice. A former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So please subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes. And I want to know what you want to know. So like, follow and drop me a note on my need to know with Dana Jonson Facebook page. Okay, let's get started. Hello, today I am speaking with Laura Hannigan. Hello, Laura. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Laura has been with us before she works with me in my office. And the reason Laura that I wanted to have you on again, is to talk about taking her children from learning disabilities and other disabilities in school to college, because that is a step that I find very difficult for typically developing students forget disabilities. And it's it's complicated enough as it is, but I know you have some in depth experience with it. So why am I asking you? Why are you the person I'm coming to to talk to me about getting kids with disabilities into college? Let's start there.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  01:37 Okay, well, aside from professional experience I've personally experienced in this area, I have three children, and the oldest, my son Brogan has dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia. And he is currently in his last semester of college. So I feel like I'm here. So I can talk a bit about the journey and some of the things I've learned and would be happy to share with your listeners.   Dana Jonson  02:01 That is awesome. So when can we start worrying about college, I have one student, I have one child, I shouldn't say student, one child of mine, who was adopted an older age, so I didn't get to know her until she was 13. But at 13, I was told she would not go to college that was not her trajectory, and that we should be looking at something else. And then I have my own biological children who from the very beginning, I presumed that college would be the end goal no matter what. And you know, I've had to adjust that perspective from time to time. And now I'm back on College Track for some of them. But when we make that decision,   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  02:38 as I said, Bergen is my oldest three children, two of them are in college, and one is currently a junior in high school. So I always did look at freshmen and sophomore years, kind of the free years where they could just enjoy school, I could have them enjoy school, and not worry about things until that, you know, critical junior year. But I found one Brogan was in 10th grade was when I really started thinking about it because like you I wasn't sure if he would be capable of handling college going away to school what our options were. In addition to his learning disabilities, he had a lot of social anxiety. So we didn't know what he was capable of. And as we all know, kids continue to mature well into their 20s. So looking at somebody at 10th grade is a totally different thing than what they're going to eventually end up to be so   Dana Jonson  03:28 but I think and I just want to jump in because what you said is really great is you're not just talking about academics, right? Oh, yeah. I they're talking about learning to live by college. And and that experience in and of itself is something it's monumental. I mean, it's really big.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  03:45 Absolutely. So, you know, in the way that I work is usually I like to research things. So if you're old enough, you probably recall the back of the big Barron's book of colleges. And I love flipping through that and they actually have an addition that's for programs with colleges and universities with programs for kids with learning disabilities.   Dana Jonson  04:05 And they just updated it, they just updated it, it came out in February, I know cuz I've ordered it.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  04:10 So really not involving him yet, because of the anxiety issue. I got that and kind of flipped through to get an idea of what the options would be. And one thing I was glad I noticed at that early stage was that many more schools became even a possibility if you have two years of a foreign language, so for them to even to consider admission, they want those two years almost despite how your child does in the class. Like many kids with dyslexia, Brogan had a foreign language language waiver. So he had not taken Spanish or French or whatever they were offering and as freshmen and sophomore year so we did end up enrolling him in his junior and senior year solely for the ability to open up that kind of extra level of colleges based on the requirements   Dana Jonson  04:58 and I found that in our in our high school. Anyway, they don't require it. So I struggled with that, because I was saying My child is going to need two years of language. And they were saying, nope, No, they don't. And then I was like, well, I need a language waiver, because I have one child with nonverbal learning disability and learning a foreign language is next to impossible. So, and they wouldn't give it to me because if not required to graduate from high school. So right parent, yeah, so I want to talk about that, at some point, how we address those barriers to?   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  05:29 Well, it's funny, I think colleges are becoming more aware of the two because more are offering things like ASL. Because if you American Sign Language, if you have a kid who struggles with reading and writing in English, and you're requiring them that they take a foreign language, you're just asking for failure for them, which is, it's just not really, you know, fair to the kid. And I know, when Brogan started taking Spanish in his high school, he was running into a lot of issues. And we kind of, you know, step back and look and and it turned out he wasn't getting the same accommodations in Spanish, like a word bank. He was not he was being penalized for spelling and things that in English, he was not being penalized for. But he wasn't Spanish. So we kind of had to get, you know, the whole team on board that the combinations carry across. Yeah, I wouldn't have even thought of that. Do that. And everyone, it was kind of a lightbulb moment for everybody. It was like, Oh, yeah, that that totally makes sense. We had just never thought of that. Yeah. So we were fortunate that his high school took a bunch of students on a college tour in the summer between sophomore and junior year. So he was able to be exposed to different campuses, different cultures on campus size locations, kind of without the parental lens being on it, which I thought was great. And it was a really good opportunity. I grew up in New York State and basically had the choice of any new york state school, I could get into sight unseen. So I wasn't really a true believer in needing to visit colleges, it was like apply to them get into the best one, you can and go there. Because Brogan has seen schools, we were able to kind of limit it to he didn't want to be urban, he didn't want to be an engineering, he didn't want to be that far away from home. So then we kind of drew a, you know, three hour radius around where we were, and figured we'd start looking at programs that had learning disability programs, kind of an official program. And just as an aside, there's kind of three main levels. So there are, every college has to have a disabilities office to address any accommodations for any students disabilities. And with that, they can sometimes offer some tutoring services or some accommodations that like extra time, then you've got kind of a middle level tier where you could maybe pay for some tutoring, or the school has like a peer tutoring section or something that the kids can go to for a little extra help. And then you've got kind of the full blown, usually additional tuition learning program that's a little more structured, we started visiting those high level, you know, learning structured ones. And it was really interesting to me, because I wouldn't have believed the benefit in the visit. Until one day, we were on a campus that on paper was a perfect fit for him. And we took our tour and the program was great. The people were great. But he and I walking around the campus, he said, I don't see any other Bourbons here. And that was a really high impact moment for me both his awareness of that and that he needed to feel like he fit wherever he was going. So that really changed my perception of what it was to visit a college. And honestly, there were some that we pulled up to and he was like, nope. And we just kept driving. And I found the exact same experience with my daughter, Kylie, there were places that we'd pull up to and it didn't feel right. Or there was something that just didn't feel like it was a place that she wanted to be. And I realized kind of how important at least in our situation with my kids that it was a really important piece.   Dana Jonson  09:08 Yeah, yeah, definitely that fit and, and getting a vibe for it too, because I was presumed not unlike high schools and other schools, just because they have a program on paper that appears perfect for you. Doesn't mean it it. Absolutely. We run into that all the time with students in elementary or middle or high school. Like Yes, well, this program may be great for a lot of kids with disability or with dyslexia, but it's not working for this kid with dyslexia. So we have to look at something different. So I think that's a great point that that individualizing doesn't change just because they're going to college. It still needs to be an individual is because if the child doesn't buy in or doesn't feel comfortable, you're not going to get out of them their best.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  09:54 Exactly. And I think for different kids, the level of that might be different, but for him it Was it was really important. And we came across his current university where they don't have a specific program. But we went in, and we talked to his the Learning Support Group. And we presented his current testing and his IPS. And they really felt that they could support him. And it was a, it was a campus that felt good to all of us. So we identified another campus that was a good fit that had an additional PE program. And we decided he would apply to both of those early but non binding so that if we needed to continue the application process, we could, but for him applying to too many schools would have been overwhelming. So we kind of picked his top two choices, and did the early application for those. And he ended up getting into both Yeah, he broken. He actually liked the one with the less formal program. And that worried us a little bit. So his high school support teachers actually got on the phone with the university and talked about the services that they could offer to him and got us all comfortable that it was a really good fit. Most importantly, was he felt like that university wanted him. And in the end, the decision was his Yeah, it was he really felt like they wanted him to be there. I think in in going through the process, there are a couple things that were really helpful, you know, we went and visited and we spoke to the people that run the disability offices and, you know, going with a list of prepared questions to ask and write down the answers. Because once you visit more than two colleges, you forget what somebody else said, you know, and bring the list of accommodations your kid is currently getting so that you know what works and what doesn't work. And you need to go in making sure that your your child knows what their strengths and their vulnerabilities are. And if they're not sure help them to kind of figure it out because it at the college level, whether they're 18 or not, when they go to college college is going to treat them like an adult. And they're going to have to advocate a bit more for themselves and know their profile as a learner. So that they can ask for help during the process. And they need to really notify their professors, each professor of the accommodations they need. Now, if they want to struggle with that, there's people that can facilitate it and support them. But it's kind of good to know going in that they've got to be a little more responsible for that kind of stuff.   Dana Jonson  12:22 When I think that's an important skill that we say all the time. Kids need to learn how to self advocate and we talked about it, we talked about it. But what does that look like? And what does that look like in real life. And what that looks like is being able to find that learning center, if that's the school that you're going to one where you have to seek it out yourself. Because as you're talking about these three tiers, what I'm understanding is there some that just offer whatever the federal law makes them offer, right, you have to offer certain level of accommodation reasonable accommodations under the ADA, then you get to the next step where they found the services, but you have to seek them out and get them yourself. And then the third level would be an integrated program.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  13:03 Correct. And one of the things we found really helpful was he set up weekly appointments, because left to make the decision in the moment about Should I go get help or not was something that was difficult for him. But when he had an appointment on his schedule, he would go every single time. So that was really, really helpful. The other thing I found really helpful, which my kids absolutely hated, is when you're on the campus, stop other students and ask them what they think about the school, and about the food and about the professors and about the dorms. And all of those parts that we you know, refer to earlier all part of the experience. And who better to tell you but somebody who's currently there, because it's really not all about the academics. It's a change in where you live, what you eat your friends, how you maintain your hygiene, it's, you know, you've probably never shared a bathroom with 20 other people before. So it's really different. And Brogan joined the ultimate frisbee team as a freshman. And that was a great choice for him. Because it kept him busy. It gave him exercise, and it kind of gave him a built in social group. And that was one of the things that I contribute to his success at school. And personally, I made the decision to not obsess about grades. And to this day, I actually don't know what any of his college grades are. I know he attends class. And we'll get to how I know that. And I know he's not failed any classes. And he's graduating in four years. So grades. You know, when I talked to him, I asked, Are you happy? Are you working hard? Are you doing well? And those are the things that I chose to focus on. Because for him the accomplishments in all of those areas were so huge.   Dana Jonson  14:40 Yeah. And I think when you're going to college, either you're in or you're out, right. So when when you're when you're looking at high school grades, you're worried about those grades because of what they bring you to NES and in college, at least my personal philosophy is you made it right you're there now. Can you stay there and make it through, because unless you are planning to do something very specific, many times your class rank doesn't actually matter. your GPA doesn't actually matter. Obviously, if you're failing or an academic probation, those are different stories. But as a rule, you know, you're not looking for that next competitive school. I mean, if you are going to graduate school, sure, but there are also other paths to graduate school. So it's a little I find it takes the pressure off a little Did you find that through your experience, or Absolutely,   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  15:32 and I think that's why it enabled me who I'm a pretty detail oriented person, to just not focus on it at all, like, as long as he receives his diploma, he's good. And it doesn't really matter how he got there. Like you said, he's passed all his classes, and he hasn't been on probation. And I think you don't know how your kid's gonna respond. When they get there, I was really worried about him and the friends and the dorm situation, because the high school that he went to was a really small High School, and he was absolutely fine. Now, my next one, my daughter, she went to college, and she had some anxiety and the dorm was really a tough thing for her, she got put in triple and that was not working.   Dana Jonson  16:15 They should never group girls in threes. I really, like we all learn that early, let's just not do it.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  16:23 You know, as an accommodation, we got her move to a single room. And that was helpful, but then she wasn't socializing really at all. So eventually, we got an emotional support dog for her that lived with her in the dorm in her single, and that provided kind of the comfort to her. And also a talking point for people like who doesn't want to go up to a dog and you know, talk to the person that's, that owns the dog. So it helps her socially to, but it wouldn't have anticipated that when she was going. But I really want to I want to circle back to the How did I know he was attending classes? Yeah, most, one of the most important things I think, as a parent you can do. As I said earlier, your kid is an adult, they make the decisions at college, you can't find out about if they went to the infirmary, how you know what happened or anything like that, unless your child tells you or they give you specific permission. So FERPA is the law that covers you know, student information. And it's true in the elementary and secondary schools. And it's true in college. So you can have your child sign a waiver that gives you access to their academic information. And I found that really helpful because I didn't have to get on the phone with or FaceTime or whatever it was with Brogan and asked him about, are you going to class? Are you going to tutoring? I could contact this other person and say, I just want to ensure he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. And as long as that answer was, yes, I could focus on all the positive things that he was experiencing at school. So I really did find that that to be helpful. And I fully recommend and your child has to agree. So that's a conversation you want to have, before you get there. And you ask them to sign something, you know, they I think depending on how much support you give your kid throughout the years, they may or may not agree to that. So it's a conversation well worth having before you get into the situation.   Dana Jonson  18:20 But I think to that point, it's also it's an age where they are supposed to be growing away from us, right? They're supposed to be developing themselves. And we as parents have been so involved in everything, particularly if their disabilities, I know when my eldest went to a transition program, which is to transition to a college is for children who are college capable, but not ready. It was actually a huge relief. It was absolutely nerve wracking until she got there. And then I was like, oh, here's someone else.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  18:54 What do you think I want him to stay there for grad school.   Dana Jonson  18:57 Right, but keep going. But it is, I think, hard to imagine, as a parent of a child who's heading towards college, that you might be okay with not having full access to everything that that that might be an okay thing. But you're right, you have to get the consent. And I think that there's a way to do that without your children feeling like you're still on top of them, because they don't want that feeling either. And I think just like you said, you know, this will prevent that, you know, I have somebody else I can call and say, you know, did this happen, or did that happen that I'm not bugging you,   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  19:33 right? And I have to say I saw tremendous growth, I'd say between junior and senior year in high school, where even going into junior year, I was uncertain whether he would go away whether he you know, wanted to be in college, whether he was capable of the workload. And there was this really, you know, maturation that happened in those years and then continued in college. Which I think we all kind of know now that your brain continues to develop till you're, you know, 25 or so. And I really saw a lot of evidence of that just in his even with the tutoring, he did have set appointments every week, he would go for help. And by the time he hit his senior year, he actually had the woman call me and say, he really doesn't need to come anymore if he doesn't want to, because he's, he's good. He's doing fine. And I thought that was great that he was able to know he had access to it at that point, there's no way he would have done that as a freshman. And that's why we set up the you know, the weekly appointments. But for her to get to the point where she could say, he knows I'm here, he knows how to access me. He doesn't need this regularly. I really was just tremendously proud of them.   Dana Jonson  20:47 What do you say to I hear this all the time with parents, I don't want the stigma of special ed or I don't want the stigma of that diagnosis. I don't want it to follow them to college. And my response is usually what do you want assistance? Do you want them to have the support they need? Because it's To me, it's not a stigma, I get where that comes from, I get that position. And I know that there are people out there who still feel that way. But in general, I see all of these schools opening these tutoring centers or additional programs within their college program. And I don't see the stigma, do you see that at now that you have children in college going through the process? Do they feel stigmatized,   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  21:32 they don't. And I have to say I have always looked at things like anxiety or learning disabilities, or those things like I have high blood pressure, I take medication for high blood pressure and I ever everyone listening now knows that I have high blood pressure. So Brogan has dyslexia, he knows he has dyslexia, he, for whatever reason is confident enough that he will say, How do you spell this and he'll ask anybody in a room, he he acknowledges he doesn't spell Well, he uses the tools available to him. And I think the fact that he is open to the fact that he has his disability makes it not a stigma for him, you do have to let your professors know that you have it. And I think that there are students that are hesitant to do that. But it doesn't go any further than that. It's it's not even like public high school where everybody in the office might know like, you really need to tell each individual professor, the combinations that you want. So if you're a strong math student, and you're taking a calculus course, and you don't feel like you need any accommodations, you don't have to go there. You can kind of, you know, tailor it to where your needs are. But I think two people needs to realize that, you know, autism, learning disabilities, all these things, there's so much more information about them. Now, colleges are seeking out kids with these things, because they recognize that there's so much more to them, and that they're absolutely cognitively capable. And in some ways, their brains work a little differently in a really good way that make them more creative or more responsive to different things, that there are more and more programs tailored to some of these students. So it's never been my position to want to hide it. I understand it's still out there. And I would just say there's so much more awareness now that it's not something that needs to be hidden.   Dana Jonson  23:23 And I feel that if the school is going to think differently of your child because of this, should your child go there? Do you want to send your child somewhere where they don't think they're capable? Because they have dyslexia? For me? The answer's no. Because to me, that's, that's just a that's an institution that's ignorant to what's transpiring in the world, and the fact that my child is intelligent and capable of the work. I also hear that argument of, well, if you can't read, then, you know, how are you going to survive in the real world and tell me if I'm wrong, I said, Well, this is school. This is how they learn to be in the real world. So we don't need to blindside them here and make it more difficult. But I think one of the things that students are learning is that self advocacy piece is learning what they're good or bad at, you know, I mean, my mother never was good at math. At no point has she done anything when she owned her own business, she had a bookkeeper, she does not do math, never done that she's not diagnosed with any disabilities. She's not, you know, none of that she just never going to do a career in math. So if reading is a real challenge to you, then perhaps once you've learned everything you need to learn in education, you may not choose a career where you have to read or if you're, you know, crazy like I am, you might decide to go into a field where you do but then you know how you have to do it.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  24:44 Right? Well, and especially this generation is so technologically driven, that I have to say I think it was when Brogan was probably 17 or 18. He had a sign something and he looked at me like what do you mean? I said, Well, you put your signature down. It's like I I don't have a signature, what had he possibly signed before? You know, you don't people don't use checks anymore, you don't really sign you can digitally DocuSign things. And I was like, make one up right now. And there's so many, you know, ways to get around so many challenges with disabilities now. And I handwriting is a big one, because I'm sure you remember we hand wrote papers and things in high school and college and potentially law school. And if that happened now, there's no way you could read a lot of these kids handwriting because they grew up typing or text, you know, voice to text or whatever it is. So   Dana Jonson  25:41 look at it the other way, when we were growing up, the kids who couldn't write did have an alternative didn't go to college. Yeah, they just didn't go to college, because there was no alternative. So they couldn't get their thoughts across, you know, because of that handwriting components, or if it was a processing speed issues, so that they, you know, the thoughts were in their head, but they couldn't get them out, those kids just didn't go to college. Absolutely. And so we were just eliminating a whole population of students who were completely cognitively capable. Absolutely.   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  26:11 And, you know, I think to the, the fear that we didn't have was, this isn't going to work. The the attitude that we took was, well, if this doesn't work, there's other options. And I think you it's not a pass or fail, college worked or didn't work, you know, there's a lot of options, even going in community colleges, for to start are a great idea. If your kids not independent enough to live far away, or we had a backup plan, if if he went and he was not happy, he could transfer and that was, you know, that was a free pass, we weren't going to judge or have an issue. It's pretty common. And it's pretty easy to transfer between colleges at this point. So the fit, luckily, was a really good fit. And he's been happy there for four years. And as I said, I hope he stays there for graduate school. And just to be clear, the same type of accommodations would go into graduate school as the same process, he would have to notify professors, but he would have access to, I just want to talk for a minute about the type of accommodations that you can get, because some of them are a little different than than high school. Yeah, one of the nice things in college, you can generally get a note taker, which is an anonymous student in the class who volunteers to take notes and share them with another student, they don't know who the student is, and the student doesn't know who they are. But you get kind of a clean copy of fully taken notes, because a lot of kids can't take notes and concentrate on what's being heard at the same time. So those are things they don't really like recording classes. So that's kind of a way around it. But you still have things like extra time, you can potentially have a different environment.   Dana Jonson  27:51 Well, and also, I just want to set a put a plug out there for how that works in the real world. I was on the board of an organization, I was the secretary and I'm one of those people, I can't listen and write at the same time. And I shouldn't say I can't do that. Obviously, you do that a lot in meetings. But it as a rule that really keeping those detailed notes is always a challenge for me. And they very happily did the same place like it was, you know, somebody else who always took notes would just I'd get an email, and then I would take that combined with mine for what I had just to make sure and to make sure that I covered it. So if that was a real life, easy, easy thing, and no one had a problem with it at all, I was still able to carry out my duties as a secretary, I had this accommodation. It didn't, you know, it was very reasonable. It was not unreasonable things. So I also think that we sometimes say, Well, how is this gonna play out in real life? exactly the way it does in school sometimes?   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  28:44 Absolutely.   Dana Jonson  28:44 Absolutely. You know, so what are some of the other accommodations? I liked the notetaking? One, I've heard that one before. And I have heard that works? Well. What about Do any of your students have extra time for you count AMS?   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  28:59 Yeah, you can potentially get extra time. Sometimes you can take it in the Learning Center, an exam, the professors will work with the Learning Center and get the tests to the Learning Center. So the student is taking it their professors are people. So I am a proponent of really having an open conversation with a professor. And sometimes you might need the Learning Center to coordinate that or to facilitate that, because you might be a little intimidated. This is your professor but I have found both of my college kids have really been able to approach their professor or email a professor and have a conversation about things that would help them and the professors in all the cases have been more than willing. They recognize you're not cheating if you're, you know, taking something in a different environment that it's required for you to do your best. So, you know, I really encourage you to have those conversations. Yeah,   Dana Jonson  29:51 I think that's a good point here is the stigma that we talked about often is a stigma for the parents. It's not for the world. That's going on. Now, I mean, that was the case when I was growing up, right? There were things that were going on for me that my parents thought were like, Ooh, that's, that's taboo that really, you know, they weren't by the time my generation came around. So, you know, it's the same thing. Now we talk about that. But I find that at least with my children, the more we've talked about it, the more open we are about it, the less they see it as a stigma or as a concern or as a barrier. And I think that's really important. And it goes back to knowing yourself as a learner, and where your strengths and weaknesses lie. And the first time you're having that conversation shouldn't be when you're applying to college, you should be having that conversation all along with your child about where they may struggle, and then it doesn't make them weak, that it just makes them vulnerable to learning differently. But they're perfectly capable of learning if they're taught in the right way. But they're not going to be taught in the right way if they don't know how they need to learn. Exactly. So because at that point, let's go back to high school where and when do we start thinking about that? And, and I know, there are different philosophies. As an attorney, I don't always recommend that parents bring their children to the IEP meetings that I attend, because they're usually contentious. And we're focusing on what a child can't do. And I don't want the child there for that, because I'm the attorney. So we're obviously in a fight. But if I'm not there, or we're at a place where the adults are getting along, then I do support very strongly a child going to their IEP meetings and discussing their disabilities and understanding where they are. And in fact, when they finished high school, if they're going to college, they should have a summary, they should have a tangible piece of paper that says, These are my strengths and my weaknesses, this is what I need and what I don't need. And this is what I need to be successful in my next location, wherever that is. So what stage do parents ask schools to start considering transition? Because I know that depending on the state, you're in, somewhere between 14 and 16, is when your school's obligated to discuss transition, right? I think a lot of transition skills are focused on vocational components. And and it's much more we do focus more on college now than we did before. But I think for a long time, there was this misconception that transition services meant vocational pieces, but it's actually meant to for whatever you're doing next. And I think that for children who are going to college, there was a misconception that maybe they didn't need transition skills, but they do and for some kids that needs to start sooner than 16. So when and how can parents figure out when to do that? Or how to approach that topic?   Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney  32:46 Well, I think it's becoming more clear in schools that the responsibility lies in seeking opportunities for both

With IEP season comes IEPs and with IEPs comes Goals and Objectives, the heart and soul of your child's IEP. So it is critical that your child's goals and objectives are Smart, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Today, Special Education Advocate Stacey Tié and I talk about what you need to know to make sure your child has SMART goals and objectives! We discuss what SMART means, pull apart examples from actual IEPs, and offer questions for parents to ask in their IEP meetings to help drive those SMART Goals and Objectives. Join us! You can find both Stacey and me at https://SpecialEd.Law and you can reach Stacey directly at Stacey@SpecialEd.Law The TRANSCRIPT for this episode can be found in the show notes at https://SpecialEd.Law/how-smart-are-your-goals

With March comes IEP season and it's time to prep! Around the middle of March, schools start holding IEP meetings to plan for the following school year. School districts are slammed trying to schedule all the meetings, students are at the beginning of the end of their school year, and parents need to prepare to advocate on behalf of their child. So how can you be best prepared? Today I speak with special education Attorney Laura Heneghan and non-lawyer special education Advocate Stacey Tié about what parents can do to put themselves in the best position possible to be an equal member of the IEP process. Join us! You can find both Laura and Stacey at: https://SpecialEd.Law Laura@SpecialEd.Law Stacey@SpecialEd.Law